Ep# 24 Championing Justice: A Conversation with Fiona Rutherford

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So I'm so pleased that Fiona has agreed to come onto the podcast today, because I think that potentially not enough of our legal community is really aware of the great work that justice does. Certainly when I was a lawyer working in the city in finance, I didn't really know about justice. And it was only when I ended up going onto the board of the government legal department, Department that to be honest, I learned a lot more about administrative law and the rule of law itself.

And that's when I started to hear about justice. And I'm proud to say that I am a member of the justice 60, which is a group of supporters of justice that get together.

on a regular basis. And at the end of the podcast, we'll talk about the different ways you can get involved in supporting justice. I do think, I think a lot of the Bar are aware of justice's existence, but it would be really great to get some more information out there, particularly into the world of private practice about the really important work that justice does.

But I'm also really pleased that Fiona is here on the podcast because of who she is and because she's had such an interesting career working for many different organizations that I think people would be interested in hearing more about and potentially think about working for at some point. So Fiona, thank you so much for coming on today.

I was wondering, can I take you back to the beginning of your career and like, how did you make the decision to go into law? What, what was it that, that drove you in that direction?

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So, I knew by about 16 that that was going to be a harder course or I'd have to recourse, to, to, to, to achieve that. And I thought about, in the loosest sense, thought about as one does at 15 or 16, I think people are a lot more au fait about it nowadays about what things I was good at, what I enjoyed.

And I did enjoy debating and I have this streak of fairness that has been with me, Since I can remember, and putting those two things together, the criminal bar seemed like a, a good alternative to medicine. So, so by around 16 or so, and without having any sort of family members in the profession, I, I started that journey of, of trying to become a, a lawyer.

so yeah, that's,and from there I, I went on to study law at, law and French actually at, at university. and then.

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Yeah, I mean, occasionally I have those moments, but not, not anywhere close enough to, to leave a, a system and a a and a sector that I, I, I have a huge amount of,commitment and affection for.

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And then the other thing is right. Some form of writing journalism, right? Those three things seems like they will attract the same, the same people. So it's also really interesting what you say about the criminal bar, because although I've worked in law, you know, for most of my career, When my daughter was thinking about going into law and she was like, Oh, should I look at the bar?

I had no clue where to start. it's, it seems like it's a bit more opaque than nowadays going into private practice. So how did you find out about it? And how did you manage to, you know, So you did your, your degree in law and French, and then, and then how did you get into getting a position at the bar?

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I helped out at, we had a sort of a loose version of a clinic that helps students with, rental issues and tenancy issues, et cetera.

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process and obviously got my qualifications at the end of that. And then you have to go into pupillage as your listeners will know. And, in criminal law, it is unheard of to get a, get a tenancy, which is the next step, which is where you get your sort of, you know, you have some,long termist,Long termism to your, to your role.

I didn't, so you know, when gets out within 12 months in other commercial sector sex sets, you can, you can get that in 12 months time. So I had to do 18 months of pupillage, but you're on your feet after six months of watching somebody else. So it's six months plus one day. I found myself in a magistrate's court ex,representing somebody for their.

Sentencing hearing who basically shouted across the court. I know more more about this than you do love, which was probably entirely right, and, and so the learning curve, which you might talk about later started very much from there. It is a very sharp learning curve as a pupil barrister.

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so yeah, learning how to, how to think on your feet took on a whole other meaning, really

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yeah. So you, so you apply for pupillage with the chambers and then do you get paid during that? It's like your training process. Do you get paid?

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How does it, how does it operate in terms of you actually getting work?

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You do your best to be most professional with your instructing solicitors. You try to build confidence that you are somebody that can be trusted and relied upon and knows what they're talking about. so you are, you know, you literally are selling yourself. on a, on a daily basis. And so, if you're not already a sort of a professional, or you don't, you know, don't, don't, have those sorts of organizational skills and so on, you, you, you quickly have to learn them if you are going to be successful.

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She was, the baby was handed over to be looked after while she was having to sit in court during the trial by the very people that were prosecuting her, so by the Border Force people, because there was nobody else at court to do it. My sister and I every morning and every evening would have to go and pick up her black plastic bags with her only belongings in from the hostel that she was living in with her.

I mean, it was just on every level, the sorts of thing that you just wouldn't want anybody to have to go through, let alone a system that describes itself as being sort of world leading and, and, with a, with a good reputation worldwide of being humane to a large extent. so that, that, that's a case I will often reflect back on.

Think, well that's, we have to make sure we're not making that, you know, have to improve on that. We have to, yeah. we can't let that happen again,

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How long were you there for? I

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And I was, you know, I had a great practice. I was at the Bailey fairly frequently. I'd sort of built up a expertise of, of, of homicide and fraud cases. Those are the two areas I, I really enjoyed working in. but I didn't really favor either of those two options as I saw them at the time. and the CPS.

was a bit of an instinctive in that I, I knew that there was a transferable skill set that I had. So I went to this advocate, but I also had this instinctive idea that in a part of a big organization, I'd have a greater sense of, of what, what, what might exist. And I didn't really know how to put my finger on it, but, as it turned out, I, I moved relatively quickly and sort of leadership roles, which I obviously hadn't experienced.

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I didn't obviously have one then, at that then, but I, I didn't see sort of mothers that worked and were able, I saw one end of the spectrum, which was people coming back from mat leave into the roving rooms, with awful stories about struggling to rebuild their practices, about not being supported appropriately through to, other women who, you know, didn't see their kids at all because they're having to, you know, it's a, it's a part job, lots of weekend and evening work.

and I, those two, I wanted, I felt there was probably somewhere that, would, allow both those things to happen in, in an opposite way. So, and again, you know, I can't lie. The, the, the CPS is an organization as is a lot of the public sector jobs where you get six months, paid maternity. so those sorts of things were, Where, where in my mind, as well, as well as the sort of the job opportunities as well.

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What did you do there? What's it like? yeah.

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So they're not there for the victim. They're not there for the defendant. They are there as a, as a, as a, An entity to ensure that justice is done appropriately, that there is a prosecution body that can, that can do that. and, I mean, in terms of, my time there, I. I joined, as I said, as a, as an advocate, out of London.

So all of my practicing before that had been in London, although you get sent everywhere as a barrister, which is sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse. but I was based in, in what was just, well, it was Hampshire and then became Wessex. So it included Dorset and Wiltshire as well. So that was, having something that worked on a, on an international, oh, sorry, a national, wide of England and Wales wide basis, was, was quite different.

it obviously has a range of stakeholders that it has to work with to be successful. It's got to work with courts, it's got to work with judges. It's got to work with defense practitioners. It's got to work with, but the host of probation, a whole host of people, and,it, There were a number of changes whilst I was there.

I worked under Ken McDonald for a bit. I worked under the current Prime Minister Keir Starmer whilst he was DPP and then most recently when I left Alison Saunders was the DPP, who is now actually another member of justice, which I'm. Which is, yeah, which is nice.

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Yeah, so we, I mean, we've been,

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And, and it was from there that, that the

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Justice came up with the idea of the concept. Okay. Okay. Wow. Into the parliamentary, help what's now the parliamentary and health service ombudsman. So that that's where you have a particular issue with the way in which parliament or the health service works. You can go to this ombudsman. You have to go through the internal complaints process, which is the same, I think for pretty much all of them.

Some are publicly funded, some are funded, you know, as the sector will fund, but they are a really, you know, they are generally, I speak generally, a really great way to seek redress, to seek,justice,as opposed to going to court or in advance of going to court.

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Do you end up going to court?

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I think it's a good, there's a good opportunity there because you, in both that role and even in the Senior Prosecutor's role and or Crown Prosecutor role and in the Advocacy role that I had, there are definite opportunities to go to court. As an Advocate, you're, you're there every day. As the other roles, you might be there less so, but if you really want to see justice being done and being part of it, it, it, it does, you know, it does tick a lot of boxes.

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largely because I'd gone for interviews as to join the senior civil service and failed twice, or came second twice, I should say, perhaps more positively at, at taking the roles on, but clearly I want to have a real benefit from it for those other people that might be going through interviews and, and perhaps having the same level of success as I was having, is that you, I got seen by, Right on the panel.

And whilst I wasn't successful for those, those roles, I obviously did something. Okay. All right. in those, in those interviews, because, they proactively, along with somebody who was then a mentor, put me forward for this to comment. And it was a one off, so common into the court service to help with what was then the sort of billion pound plus.

Right.

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So, and I've taken that now I do that and after every interview, I will dictate into my phone straight after the interview, all the questions that I can remember so that I can prepare better for those types of questions. Great piece of advice. Now, as a matter

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And I knew, as I've already hinted at, that I wanted to join the civil, the senior civil service. And so a big part of the first six months was, was working out what kind of roles there were and how to do that. Just for people who won't understand, tell us what the senior civil service is. So it's, it's, it's what I think old style used to be sort of described as mandarins of government.

so it's the, it's, it's the equivalent in an organization of the, the senior, the senior, leadership, I guess, partners. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. and, with that comes obviously greater responsibility, but greater access and, and, and, I suppose on the subject of access, one of the, the sort of biggest learning curve for me when I joined the HMCTS, the court service was, the access that you have or are required to have with, with ministers and with, with senior judges.

So, for those of you that don't know, the court service has a constitutional framework. And I think it's the only, as far as I know, it's the only body in the entirety of the public sector That has two masters that sit, as, two, elements of the constitution. So if the constitution's, the executive, the legislator, and the judiciary, this is a, I think the only body that has two constitutional masters in it, the, the, the law Chief justice is part of the leader, the, head of the, the service.

And the Lord Chancellor is to actually serves the senior president of tribunals. two. So it's, it's, it's, it's got a

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So politicians, hadn't, I'd always worked as a barrister, you're independent, politically, you might be politically minded. I wasn't particularly other than taking an interest in it. and the CPS, an independent body, but, and so is the court service. I hasten to add as an independent executive agency, but you do have a political master.

And so, By week three, I found myself in front of Michael Gove, who was the current Lord Chancellor, advising him on, the criminal justice system and what options he had open to him in terms of what the future of that system ought to look like, which was

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And, Michael Gove was quite keen of, of understanding, you know, my understanding is when he was in DFE, he would talk to, I mean, perhaps he ought to talk a bit more depending on, depending on people's views, but he would talk to teachers, head teachers. And certainly I can say. In the, when he was with the MOJ, he, he did talk to practitioners and he did talk to just, to judges a lot.

So,I think that having that practical experience held me in quite good stead, in a department that, has a wide range of sort of policy areas to cover.

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I also think that one thing, other thing that being a barrister taught me was that being prepared is often the right way to get on the right, on the, you know, the front foot with people. So, That that's a lesson that I think I've, I've taken through and so make sure you're not turning up, without knowing what you're talking about, to some extent, as much as you can be prepared, I think, is, is something that's appreciated by people that are wanting to listen to your advice.

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I think the, I think there's something, you're generally in a smaller room, it's, there is sometimes, it's sometimes quite one on one in terms of your interaction with a, with a minister, but the, the, the scale and the, the level at which you're talking about is generally a policy or system level, whereas, you know, if you're in the Court of Appeal, it's normally about somebody who's at the heart of it and, I suppose you're 15 steps closer to feeling a real sense of responsibility

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So, again, really useful training for anybody in policy is to make sure that you have some of that frontline contact so you, you can hold it and remember it when you're. talking figures and facts and all the rest of it, you actually have a sense of what it means to a human being.

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Is that right? So was that? Well,

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and, yeah, then from there into, into that. So you were there

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Some people can't afford and there are there are access. There is access to, some funding available to, to support people, but, it was a, on one side, incredibly sobering and again, a deep sense of responsibility, involved in it. On the other, it's my best experience of working cross government and working with other departments.

It was a real company with a real goal and shared outcome, which is why I'm a massive fan of, of trying to. Thank you. Be outcome focused and to find, to find those the outcomes that you can share with other people. Because it was such a great example of where, when you are all focused on achieving the same goal, you can put aside the sort of the budgetary argument, you know, you, you can put aside the, But we do it this way.

and you, and you can really do some amazing, amazing things.

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They were amazing people. and I think, you know, sometimes the civil service gets a hard time. and I, I think, yeah, we probably don't appreciate enough all the amazing work that goes on in the civil service, supporting the government. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, I

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They are amazing. I could, I completely agree with everything you said.

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It's one of the things that attracted me to, to go for the job in the first place. it's, it's, Work and, reputation and,reputation for high quality work was, was, was known across a range of different, aspects of the M O J H M C T S, the CPS, et cetera. So, That, that drew me in. the, the, the thing I was, I suppose, wanting to, to test a bit is was the sort of sense of how innovation, innovative and,because lots of the ideas that justice comes up with is, is, So the first one is around pragmatism and finding practical solutions, so not just, you know, a think tank that has lots of ideas that are not achievable because they will cost billions of pounds or whatever. But actually an organization that's finding solutions that not only will work, but are also sustainable.

able to be delivered without huge expense or without always having to lay down 15 pieces of legislation. You know, it has to be, it has to be things that are deliverable.

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that stands out and it could be great to vote if there are like, and then how did you deal with them? What did you learn from them?

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and then it turned out to be a three person panel and,and that it very much was a competition and, and I didn't end up getting the job, which the person who got it was entirely, was a very good person and was entirely entitled to do it, frankly, based on what I've seen. But, I think being open and transparent about a recruitment process, and, and then adhering to it is, is, is, is pretty important and pretty, important.

There's a say something that I've taken through.

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So it's amazing. And there really shouldn't ever be a stupid question. No, I, so I, I think that's a, you're very right to pick me up on that. I agree. I don't think there is a stupid question. And I think there's also sort of on the opposite end of that, there's something about, and maybe there's, there's a bit of experience in here as well, but there's ambiguity and learning to be okay with ambiguity as well, which is sort of the other, the other, I think that was a really big learning curve for me in, in both HMCTS and the MOJ in particular is that, lots of times, Other people won't know, nobody will know the answer.

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Definitely.

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Justice already had quite a lot of that, that nailed, you know, so it was sort of already a mature values led organization. So, that, that was wonderful. The second thing that was wonderful is that, We all talk about in government trying to be evidence led, and sometimes that's true. And sometimes the politics get in the way, and sometimes money gets in the ways, whatever.

but being evidence led isn't something you can hand on heart saying, say is, is what, what follow, what, what has always been happening, not least actually, because in the justice sector, there is a real lack of evidence in, in quite a,in quite a number of different, areas. But in justice, we put evidence first, so, that we spend a lot of time researching the areas.

We speak to experts who have done their own research. We learn from that research. We synthesize the, the, the, the different data and evidence that we can get hold of where there isn't. We'll do, we'll, we'll, we'll do that. Do sort of qualit a qualitative approach. and, and then we're, we're able to come up with, with answers to complex problems that, we know are, are founded in that sort of, in that, in that foundational, that great sort of

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Okay, excellent. And, and what are justices plans? What's on the agenda going forward? I know you've just released a strategy. So what are you, what are you looking at focusing on for the future?

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So, in terms of our program of work, we've, we've, we've worked that out for the next 12 to 18 months and we will continually review. But the things we really want to focus on for the next. Six year years is, firstly trying, ensuring that the rule of law is, is established as a, a key feature of our democracy.

and one of the ways in which we've, we've done that or are trying to do that, 'cause it's very much, I should say a work in progress is create a guide for. The legislators, that's the MPs, the peers in the House of Lords to better understand how to make good law and and how to ensure that the rule of law is part of what they're thinking about when they're creating that law when they're debating, knowing that there are over 52 percent of MPs.

who are brand new legislators, in this new parliament, parliamentary session. It felt like a really good time to, to, to do that piece of work and to roll it out, which we're in the process of now doing. In fact, we've got a launch event in the commons next week, with, with lots of interesting people speaking.

Secondly, I mean,

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So if you're a victim in Devon, or you're a victim in Durham of a criminal offence, The law should and the system and the administration of the criminal justice system should apply to you equally, for example, the secondly, no one's above the law, maybe a good example of that is covered and everybody needing to adhere to the rules that were in place, or there are consequences.

and thirdly, that government, must comply with the law and should not exercise its power arbitrarily. So, perhaps, an example of that would be the Miller 2 judgment around prorogation, where around Brexit and yeah, the judges deeming that the, the government had gone beyond its, its natural power.

Those are the three sort of big principles around the rule of law. The law made an example of the rule of law, or law being made badly would be something called the Henry the eighth,sort of legislation that's primary legislation where you give a, a sense of, of what you want to do, or the government will give a sense of what they want to do in the legislation.

But then deem lots of it to be implemented or to be shaped more clearly by secondary legislation. Now, primary, as you might know, is it has quite a lot of debating. There's a lot of process around reports and around people scrutinizing that legislation, whereas secondary can often simply be signed by a minister.

If it's a, if it's a type of secondary legislation, and sometimes there might be a bit of a debate, but it's a much less scrutinized. So if you're putting everything into secondary or making secondary, being the really the documents that are telling you how the law gets applied, that's a troubling way to create law, because it means that the democratic process is to some extent being usurped.

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at the moment, we're looking at, for example, women and girls in the criminal justice system from a racialized perspective, a minority perspective. So trying to make improvements there, the third area, I can talk a bit more about that if it's, if it's a interest of interest, but the third area, and I've, I've mentioned this a few times, but putting people at the heart of, the, the, the system and ensuring that the system is trusted and is, has better data, to ensure that it is built around what people.

actually do need. So that's, that's going to be a big focus for us. We're doing some work on AI and the law and creating the principles that we think ought to exist in the creation and development of AI from a justice sector perspective. So watch that space. The principles hopefully coming out of the next few months.

yeah, that's going to be a big program of work, after that, as well. and then fourthly, and again, I've touched on this is about trying to increase. the public's understanding of the value of what the justice system is and its value. And within that to try and set out and articulate some of the challenges, but also some of the solutions.

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But, I mean, we're the only non governmental organization, the only NGO, whose work spans the entirety of the UK. justice system. So we do interact or do engage with the Scottish government. We do engage with the Welsh government and the Northern Ireland,yeah, government. and, depending on whether it's, we know that laws are being introduced.

So for example, when, in the conservative manifesto, At the last concept of manifesto, there was talk of judicial review being reviewed. We set up an advisory group that was chaired by Lord Justice cross. Equally, we rights were talked about in that same manifesto. We set up a human rights advisory group that, Lord Dyson, former Supreme Court Justice and Master of the Royals chaired.

So we, we, we try to, if there is a, if there is policy being developed, we'll try and create advice and advisory groups and, and work to input into it. If something's happened,or law has been passed or, or we can see that there are, There are areas of policy that need improving, then it becomes more, trying to influence, persuade government to make the changes that they need to make.

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There's something for everybody on our membership scheme. You mentioned Justice 60. So, for those who are in a position to be more generous, there is a group called our Justice 60, which if anyone's interested, I'm very happy to talk to them about that. We're also in the process, and this is the first time I've mentioned this,and it will be mentioned, more at our AGM in the next week or so, but we're thinking about how we can better engage with, with younger people.

so the sort of 16 to 25 year olds, and thinking about how we can better understand the areas of justice that they are. Worried about, that they would see or gain greater value from being empowered a bit more with some information. so, yeah, that's, that's going to be a newer area for us building with law students, et cetera, but going trying to go wider.

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the, 40 percent from trusts and foundations that we have to apply to,and some of those are multi year, some are not, and there's a whole range of how, how much, any individual grant might be. Okay. and then, as you say, the, the sort of bigger chunk, the 50 percent is, from law firms who are providing donations to individuals, and are just a 60 and, and,legacy.

So thinking about probate and wills is a, is a, is an area as well that, that people do think of us, which is, which is great. And at that point in their, in their lives. So, yeah, a range of, a range of different places. Okay,

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And that's because my experience of when I'm coaching, talking to women about their strengths is they, Often a great at giving me one, if I really push them to, and then they'll start telling me about a weakness. So I want to try and get people to hone their strengths and talk about them. And then we'll close with your three pieces of advice to your younger self.

But yeah, tell me about three of your strengths. Proudly, proudly and excitedly.

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secondly, resilience, I think that's been a really big part of my career. We touched on it a bit earlier, and, and needing to work with a range of different people with different values has been a really big part of that. Thirdly, Inclusion, I mentioned fairness at the very beginning as being, you know, cut me in half.

I think fairness would be written somewhere in the core throughout. And, I think inclusion has been sort of a, it's been something I, I, I've articulate, I can articulate better, but probably has been something I've felt and, and I think I'm, I'm good at from everything, you know, from, from being acting with humanity.

And I try to act kindly to, and instill this sort of culture of kindness, but equally. You know, having a diverse workforce and every meaning of the word has been a really big part of, of the last sort of 10 years of my, my career. So, it's, that's only going to get, I think, get bigger over the, over the coming years.

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It did nobody, you know, anybody else I was trying to work with or, or serve any good. So, only constructive reflection is what I allow myself to do now. Definitely no cringing. Secondly, I would have sought out. And this is just something I just didn't know about. I would have sought out coaches and mentors and sponsors.

I would understand what those, those functions do. I'd have done that much sooner. I, it was accidental that I benefited from that sponsor in the CPS into the HMCTS. And, I think there's something a lot more deliberative and maybe, you know, those in their twenties and teens are better at doing that now or know about it more, but that would be something I would have done more of.

And thirdly, I think I'd have got rid of the albatrosses We all have these, earlier on, you know, for me, it was, I had, I didn't do as well in my A levels or my degree as I, as I wanted or thought I was able to do. And there's some personal reasons behind that. but I allowed myself to, to have that hanging around me, until quite recently, actually.

And. I think there's something about being the master or mistress of your own destiny. And, you know, as with any good architect, if you need to redesign what you're hoping to do, or do them in a different order, that's okay. and life is, you know, there's lots of opportunities there. and others I've seen others with much bigger albatrosses than I have had.

and I've drawn a huge amount of inspiration from those

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I think that there was also when you have these sort of, particularly when you're applying for new jobs and you, you look back about what you've actually, and you have to think about those examples and you sort of think, Oh my goodness, I'm actually. I can do some stuff and it hasn't had the impact I thought it would have done when I was 18 or, and then as I say, seeing how other people have got over more for me, that's whenever, whenever something is not going well, I do try and draw on looking at people who have, are in a worse position.

Cause that, for me, that personally helps me to put things into perspective a bit more.and that, you know, seeing what other people have, I've achieved with far greater difficulties in their backgrounds has, has helped me. as I say, inspired me to, to do better and put some of that to one side.

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Well, look, thank you so much, Fiona. We will, we'll put some links to justice, into, the show notes. Do, do go and look at the website. Do you think about signing up? It's really, really important. We, we're really lucky. We do have this incredible rule of law in this country. We have this incredible justice system.

Of course, there are lots of things that like everything else that need improving, and we need people. working on and being focused on what does need to be improved and how do we make sure we retain all of the great things about the system that we've got. So do have a look at the website and become a member.

and Fiona, thank you so much for your time. It's been really fascinating talking to you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, Erica. Thank you.