Ep#1 - A Conversation with Helen Burton, London Managing Partner, Ashurst

[: 00:00:00

[00:00:07] Full disclosure, Helen and I have known one another for a very long time. She was my trainee in New York when she first started out on her legal journey at ANO. And then I was lucky enough to move with Helen in the next couple of career moves that we both made. But I'll let Helen introduce herself and tell you some more about her amazing career.

[: 00:00:25

[00:00:28] Thank you very much, Erica. And it is a real pleasure to be here this afternoon. so yeah, I'm a lawyer and I have been working in city law firms for over 30 years, the last 31 years. I am, as you said, I'm a partner, I'm based in the London office and I have been based in London throughout my career, apart from a brief stint with you in New York, but I was only there as a trainee.

[: 00:00:49

[00:01:11] and then for eight years, I was privileged enough to sit on the global executive team as well with different, leadership roles. and since May I've stepped back from the executive team and I'm now the London office managing partner. Thank you. And, and

[: 00:01:24

[00:01:28] do you practice in?

[: 00:01:29

[00:01:45] pressure, quite sort of fast paced.

[: 00:01:49

[00:01:53] So, I would always liken it to when you're talking to, juniors about which way they want to focus. Whether you're the person who would do your essays when you're at university the night before they would you in, then you're probably a transactional lawyer. Yes, I

[: 00:02:07

[00:02:10] And tell me a little bit about life

[: 00:02:12

[00:02:34] It was through just how life had come along. and, I moved outside of London about six years ago and I'm still getting used to the idea that I commute. I'm not very good at making the change on time. Excellent. Thank

[: 00:02:48

[00:03:02] I have had coaching. I have had, I would say three different coaches through my career thus far. I had first, the first coaching I came across was paternity coaching. and then, which was just before I left the parental leave with my first child. and then, as I said, I've had two different career coaches throughout, the rest of my career, but that was a little bit later.

[: 00:03:29

[00:03:56] So I felt a little bit like it was a tick the box exercise rather than actually what I should have done in retrospect is sort of grasp the opportunity and really thought about what I wanted to, achieve when I came back and actually joined my parental leave as well. Okay,

[: 00:04:12

[00:04:30] Did it help from that point of view at all, or not? It didn't sound like not really.

[: 00:04:34

[00:04:49] and I, so I think it was useful, but I don't feel that I got the best out of it because as I said, it felt as though it was, generic rather than personalized, but again, not a criticism of the coach. I think that was probably my reception to it. before I. I went on parental leave, I had no idea what it was going to, obviously nobody has any idea before their first child of what's going to hit you.

[: 00:05:16

[00:05:31] And just looking back at that period about coming back in after having had a baby.

[: 00:05:36

[00:05:42] I think the workplace is changing a lot actually to make it easier. and here we have, uh, parental leave is offered to all staff, and the number of men who are taking it up is, is just fantastic.

[: 00:05:56

[00:06:21] the ones where I might have, which were maybe nicer clients, didn't seem to come back to me ever, and I didn't... and feel confident enough in my own voice to go and ask for them to come back to me. So it was one of those typical, probably lose, lose situations. and I think it's really important to think about, you know, I was a partner when that all happened.

[: 00:06:38

[00:06:54] So be a bit more demanding, have a louder voice about.

[: 00:06:58

[00:07:16] So it's a, it's an amazing thing that they've done. So let's hope more people take it up. So, so tell me a bit more about other times that you've had coaching

[: 00:07:24

[00:07:44] Need, needed it or wanted it. and I would always encourage anyone if you're offered coaching, even if you don't think you need it at that time. Well, and as I've just talked about with the parental, legal coaching, it was always go in with a positive mindset. so it was really very interesting thinking about, yeah, as I transitioned to senior management.

[: 00:08:09

[00:08:33] actually coaching me helped me to stop being so concerned about how I felt, and thinking about my internal perception and my internal security, but actually thinking about the image that you want to project. To people, and how you can come across your leadership shadow, I think is maybe the easiest way to put it.

[: 00:08:57

[00:08:59] any particular, any particular nuggets that you talk away, took away from that about how to think about yourself as a leader, rather than worrying about internally how you were feeling about it, like how, how to

[: 00:09:12

[00:09:19] Actually more formal observing other members of the executive team. One of the things I've always done throughout my career is look at other people, often people who are a more senior in their role. And I've had so many people, you included, but many, many people who have really helped me, throughout my career.

[: 00:09:37

[00:09:57] you know, just like bringing your authentic self to work. So I think that, so whether it actually came from the coaching, whether it came from observing people, but I think the, Always remembering to take that step back. And I think it's particularly important when you're in that management role to sort of again, look at things much more holistically, try and have a bit of empathy, think about how things will land with different people at different levels across the organization.

[: 00:10:26

[00:10:48] Yeah,

[: 00:10:49

[00:11:03] And then as you get more senior, you sort of get introduced to client relationship and trying to win business and develop those relationships. But then we never really get much grounding in running a business or setting a strategy or how you deal with the P& L. or even, I think there are more management programs nowadays and more leadership programs, but that thinking about the law firm as a business isn't something that's really focused on very much in law firms nowadays.

[: 00:11:27

[00:11:38] It was more learning on the job, I would say, but I also think, you know, once you start looking at the numbers and the figures and seeing people who.

[: 00:11:46

[00:12:13] e. accepting that some people are better at people management, some people are better at expertise, some people are better, everyone has a different skill set, but we expect, the partnership to be able to do everything. and there's no sort of pointing different people towards different areas of where they're just more natural.

[: 00:12:32

[00:12:55] Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Like every lawyer wants to be A plus in every single bit, potential bit of their role. But clearly that's, you know, that's never going to be you. You're not going to be good at sports and amazing at music and amazing, incredible at maths, unless you're very, very lucky. Yeah. Yeah.

[: 00:13:12

[00:13:19] embrace it. And pull them in to be part of your team rather than just thinking that, you know, that, that's the whole point is that you should be building a team with a diverse skill set and finding people who complement you.

[: 00:13:31

[00:13:50] And that's always really nice. So actually then you start talking. To, clients, but just about their strategy and our strategy and where it's going. And are we aligned and are the issues that we see coming down the road the same as the issues that they see coming down the road? So that has been really nice.

[: 00:14:07

[00:14:12] a whole aspect of being. In a law firm that you probably wouldn't think is there initially, like the fact you are running this big business and you are just like any other big business, okay. And then tell me about, I know you then had coaching again later in your career, when you were looking at, going for a role within the firm.

[: 00:14:29

[00:14:30] Yeah, no, I had coaching, I think more generally, more recently, um, but it was really helpful. So I stood to, stood to be the, the global chair of ushers. A couple of years ago now, I think, and I didn't get the role, but what was really helpful for having, thinking through actually what I needed to do to better project in, in that role, if I'd had got the role, but actually the role generally, you know, the, the whole thinking about that role actually is as valid in my role now as office managing partner, It's, it's helping focus on, I guess, what you've achieved rather than the inordinate focus sometimes on, on missteps to a career.

[: 00:15:21

[00:15:48] Can be come louder and louder and louder, and it's just remembering actually didn't even need to turn that down, just turn the volume up with respect to what you have achieved in your career as well. So it's and I often think of it as actually being a bit self obsessed, which you think of as a negative.

[: 00:16:06

[00:16:21] in the, if you, if you let your inner critic go, you're being effectively a bit self obsessed.

[: 00:16:26

[00:16:31] Yeah, even though it doesn't feel like you're indulging because it's not a voice that you want to hear. Yeah, okay. But it is that.

[: 00:16:38

[00:16:43] I think, well, I've got actually, I've got a word cloud, which is stuck up over my, in my office. And so that is which was sort of trying to bring together all the things that you have achieved and I think that's brilliant and it sounds so silly, but it's such a fantastic visual aid. and, you know, and to get to the cloud, then you have to go through and you write all the things that you're proud of and, and.

[: 00:17:07

[00:17:24] You need to get things right. and that perfection, perfection however, is largely unachievable. So, we tend to have that self critical. I'm such a failure if, if we sort of miss 1 percent rather than remembering that 99%. So as I say, having that visual and having to go through the process of actually thinking of all the things that you've achieved and not just in the office either, I think is really, really helpful.

[: 00:17:51

[00:18:09] and you know, still in relatively early days, sort of haven't been involved for six months yet, but thinking about though, you know, there will be things that are problematic and there'll be hurdles as we're trying to achieve what I would like to. but again, I hope that. The mindset of having a coach has made me realize, okay, so don't just give up, work around it, work, find a different work through, and just keep on going.

[: 00:18:35

[00:18:57] So then you can look and see just how many. When you are really challenged to thinking about what's great about you, just how many you will actually tick. So I will put that up on my website so you can have a play with it. So then I think, Helen, we were going to talk about an issue, that you, where you think coaching might have been useful for you, at this point, as an earlier stage in your career, rather than something you're grappling with currently.

[: 00:19:21

[00:19:36] around this issue.

[: 00:19:37

[00:19:54] But I, I did not enjoy, say, my first two years post qualification being a lawyer. I found it incredibly stressful. I found it incredibly, no work life balance. and I think that maybe things have changed now because people are more likely to have different careers throughout their lifetime. But at the time...

[: 00:20:15

[00:20:36] Because I think, and I, you know, it can feel like this at different points in your career where you feel as though you have no choice. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. and I think often people feel they don't have a choice because they are unable. Again, it goes back to everything, doesn't it? Step back. Unable to step back.

[: 00:20:56

[00:21:25] Which is slightly ironic, when the people I lived with, who were the same level as me, both ended up leaving law.

[: 00:21:31

[00:21:36] Don't say never. They have definitely, you know, they're definitely miserable times all the way through. but I think probably post the first two years, I think the first two years of, qualification, I think the first two years of partnership were pretty miserable.

[: 00:21:54

[00:22:15] out of your comfort zone is part of it.

[: 00:22:18

[00:22:35] then as they, we were, we were talking

[: 00:22:38

[00:22:40] So you'd have told me you're feeling really unhappy, you're not enjoying your job,

[: 00:22:44

[00:23:05] as great?

[: 00:23:08

[00:23:40] but the, the irony, so I can remember, I may have told you this story before, I can remember going into, well, and I used to get the tube from Victoria tube station and there was always a homeless person sitting outside, usually having drunk quite a lot, but sort of 8, 13 in the morning. And every morning I would walk past saying, you're so lucky, you're so lucky you don't have to go and do what I have to do today.

[: 00:24:02

[00:24:22] And what

[: 00:24:23

[00:24:38] I think it was the pressure I was putting on myself. Mm hmm. of feeling that you had to be perfect and had to do everything that you were asked to do, even if you weren't quite sure what you were supposed to be doing.

[: 00:24:52

[00:24:53] Okay, so that's so interesting. Because I guess the, the good thing about that, obviously it's not a good thing per se, but the good thing about that is if it's the pressure you're putting on yourself. Then there's something you can do about it to explore it. And where does that come from? Why are you doing it?

[: 00:25:06

[00:25:27] under control. I mean, do you think now looking back, there were alternatives? Were there other things you could have done?

[: 00:25:34

[00:25:46] So, you know, another friend is now a recruitment consultant in law, but you know, wasn't even that you had to go and do something completely different. There's so many areas that are tangential that I could have done, but at the time it was as though I just had blinkers on. Yeah. Had these blinkers on.

[: 00:26:03

[00:26:24] Yeah. Yeah. And I mean,

[: 00:26:26

[00:26:47] so it's, it's an amazing thing to have. And if you, if you're not having it with a professional coach, then finding some people, you know, your personal board of directors or people you can go and talk to in a bit more of a strategic way, you'll listen. And reflect back, but not try and solve everything for you, but just listen to you and let you work out for yourself what you need to do.

[: 00:27:07

[00:27:21] law, a law

[: 00:27:21

[00:27:28] Changing and going and becoming a teacher or doing something completely different. What would that have felt

[: 00:27:33

[00:27:37] It was just never something that I thought a practical, practical option. I don't know why. You know, again, I look back at it and think, what was I thinking? You know, there was just this absolute, this is what I have to do. It was a bit like I was a Duracell bunny and I was being pointed. And other batteries are available.

[: 00:27:57

[00:28:17] Absolutely fantastic. I've been here for not as just by being the lawyer for 31 years. It's been great. and I, so I don't know whether I would have done, but maybe just talking to somebody would have helped me set some boundaries around, you know, what, what life balance or the inner critic who's always saying, you're not good enough, you're not good enough, you're not good enough.

[: 00:28:38

[00:28:52] mean, it's interesting as well, that black and white thinking about either you're in a, in a magic circle or firm, or you're outside the tube station drinking Stella.

[: 00:28:59

[00:29:17] So that I think don't, you know, challenge yourself. Are you doing some black and white thinking? And then the other thing I would say to a lot of people, nearly everyone I coach is having a mantra, which is, it is just a job. When something big in your life happens with someone you love and that you're worried about, the job won't be important at all.

[: 00:29:35

[00:29:50] so, so looking back on, on if you were talking now to Helen when she was three years qualified, what would

[: 00:29:56

[00:30:01] I think the key thing, so, I guess, believe in yourself, um, others might look like they have all the answers, but they never do, and your voice is as important as anyone else, often who's talking too much, so I think that is just feeling empowered to express your views, um, which took me a long time, and still sometimes I, I find difficult, focus on what makes you, I know, happy, fulfilled, contented, and proud.

[: 00:30:34

[00:30:54] It makes you happy, contented, it's really, really important. and again, and I think it's that point we were talking before about thinking about your achievements, taking times to step back, think about your achievements and think about where you're heading, going back to that. No, you see the black or white, actually, as you say, there were shades of clay and don't be frightened to divert if you feel the urge, and actually, if you divert, you can probably get back on track if you want to, You know, as I say, that often things can feel very binary, and then that's also the fear of making the decision because you don't know if you can get back to where you were if you make the wrong decision, whereas now I would say imperfect action is better than perfect inaction.

[: 00:31:43

[00:31:50] I love it. So imperfect action is better than perfect inaction. I love it. That was a fantastic mantra. So thank you so much, Helen, for taking the time and for being so open, on the podcast. it's been lovely spending the time with you.

[: 00:32:05

[00:32:08] Before we leave this topic, Helen, can I just ask you. Are you pleased that you stuck with it? Was it worth the pain at the beginning and the pain when you've been out of your comfort zone? Are you, are you pleased with where you've got to in terms of your career now?

[: 00:32:20

[00:32:43] And it's what I would probably not have done in those two years when I was really, really miserable, which is being open, being inquisitive, say yes, when people ask you to do things and throw yourself in because it just makes for a much more rewarding, fulfilling career. Yeah, and

[: 00:33:01

[00:33:03] it sounds like, be kinder to yourself.

[: 00:33:06

[00:33:09] you.