Ep#10 - Breaking Barriers: Aedamar Comiskey - Journey to Senior Partner

So I'm really delighted today to welcome Aedamar Comiskey to the Women's Room Legal Division. She's very kindly taken time out of her busy schedule as senior partner of Magic Circle Linklaters to talk to me about her life and career.

partner of Linklaters in May: 2021

female senior partner to be elected in the firm's long and distinguished 183 year history. So that's a long time without a woman at the helm. And previously before that, as well as running a really busy M& A practice, Ada Mar was global head of corporate responsible for managing the firm's very extensive corporate practice around the world.

And she also sat on the firm's executive committee for Five years. So Adam, welcome. it's a really amazing career. It really is. so diving straight in. I'd just be really interested to know if there are any things in particular that you credit your achievements to, like it might be early life experiences.

we just talked about your large family, pivotal moments that happened in your career, or even like great advice that you've been given. So when people say. How did you get to where you are? What do you tend to say to them in return?

It's a very good question, Erica. I don't, I honestly don't, didn't have a plan.

much thought. Mm-Hmm, , until: 2015

And I honestly thought that was very funny at the time because I said, well, why would I do that? You know, I, I, I, I don't know what I'd say. I don't know what I. No idea why, what I'd say if I was a senior partner of link leaders and,and it was funny because I guess, in thinking about that, I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll write a manifesto.

ybe that's why I ran again in: 2021

And I thought, well, I'll give it another go. And the good thing about, I guess part of the reason I ran the first time was because I, I was a bit afraid to do it, but, but I thought that's not a reason not to do something. That's not a reason not to give something a go. And that was actually a very good thing to sort of, for me anyway, to kind of realize, because I think that is a good thing.

You know, if you can work out well, why do I not wanna do this? And, and if whatever it is. And, and if you don't agree with your own reason for not wanting to give it a go mm-hmm, , then it's much easier to give it a go. and, and, and so that was a good learning, moment for me. And, and I actually, the good thing about it was it, although I didn't, you know, I didn't succeed the first time, it was a very good experience.

and I learned a huge amount from it. And, so that's, for me anyway, that's been a. A good learning that, you know, if you can learn something from things, why wouldn't you, why wouldn't you give them a go?

Amazing. Yeah. And that's obviously amazing advice for other people. I mean, particularly that like pushing yourself over the edge, like when you're scared, is that something that you've done, you know, earlier on in life?

Had you practiced that before feeling a bit scared about doing something and then analyzing it and taking it forward?

Yeah, I guess maybe a little bit, and maybe. You know, in a funny way, it might be a go right back to when I was much younger and, you know, when you are, when you are one of the younger siblings in a, in a big family, sometimes you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone on a regular basis just to keep up with what's with what your siblings are doing or whatever it is.

And maybe I'd sort of learned along the way that. You know, the worst thing that can happen is, you know, you don't get what you want, but your life goes on and you keep going. So, maybe a little bit, I guess I have a bit of a, I would try and give, from a mindset point of view, I always try to say, well, what's the worst that could happen?

I won't be any worse off than if I didn't give it a go. So I may as well give it

a go. Okay. I love that. That, because I actually talk to people quite a lot about that when I'm getting them to think about reframing, like. What they're saying to themselves in their head about things like public speaking or like asking for a pay rise, I'm like, let's talk about what's the worst or business development.

Actually, it's like, what's the worst that can happen? Because often there's like this sort of black abyss of something horrible we think might happen. But when you actually analyze it, the worst that can happen, you know, really isn't that bad. No,

I mean, the worst that can happen is. You're no worse off than if you didn't.

Mm-Hmm. try. So yeah, you do the risk analysis. You think, well, I might get something and I'm no worse off if than if I don't try at all. So I may as well . Yeah.

And did you, I mean, 'cause although you weren't, although it wasn't like, I, this is everything I've ever wanted to do and I'm going to stand and then not get elected.

You know, you still, so, although it wasn't like that, it wasn't like I've, this is my passion. This is what I really want to do at that stage. You obviously still had to write your manifesto, put yourself out there, go through the whole, I presume there were hustings and things. Was it, was it hard to handle the disappointment?

You know, what was it like when, when Charlie got in and you didn't, was it, was that difficult to handle or was it easy?

No, it was, I mean, it was, it was difficult for a couple of days because, you know, if you, If you go all in for anything and you put a lot of effort into it, and you know, if you, if you go for something, you shouldn't put, you know, you shouldn't give it your best shot because you, you want to feel you, you did your best.

And when you put a lot of effort into something, I think it's very natural then. Even if you kind of knew it was a long shot, I think you still feel a bit disappointed when, when it doesn't come, come, come good because you've tried so hard. But I think, I think I, so that I was a little bit, you know, it's a bit of a natural feeling.

You feel a bit rejected. But I, I was able to rationalize it in my own mind very quickly, to be honest, because I knew it was a long shot. So, and I'd wanted to run Erica because I felt that it was important that women run for, for these roles. I thought, well, why, you know, Why not? so I was glad that I'd run and I, I, yeah, I was disappointed initially, but I got over it pretty quickly.

And, and, and a lot of people had said to me actually, before I ran, you know, you need to be all right if you don't get it, because, and I said, yeah, no, I agree with that. And then, you know, I kept saying to myself, well, I. I would be all right if I didn't get it. So now I need to be all right if I didn't get it.

So, you know, I, I, and I was, I, I, I, I was, I was fine.

Yeah. So it sounds like you've got your own internal coach, which is, which is fantastic on, on the subject of which, have you, have you ever had coaching? Have you ever had someone coaching you through these sorts of things?

Yes. No, I, I'm a big fan of, of, of coaching because I think we all need help.

I think it's very important. And I think being able to talk to people and, and feel comfortable knowing that you can. You know,

be,

be very open about what you're worried about or what, what's, what you feel bad about or what you feel you're doing badly. And I think it's really important to be able to, to talk, to talk it through with people.

So I, I think coaching is, I really do think it's very helpful for, no matter how experienced you are. experienced anybody is, I think that we can all benefit a lot from coaching.

Yeah. And it's interesting because I've just been sort of starting to advise people. I haven't actually tested this out myself and I probably should do, but.

You know, one of the reasons I set up this podcast was so that people who don't get given one to one coaching through their firms, or, you know, it's, you know, it's not a cheap, you know, it's not a cheap thing to undertake, but there's an awful lot of life coaching out there that actually is quite reasonable.

And I think, you know, I always say the biggest thing about coaching is getting away from the emails and the meetings into a room with someone who doesn't have an agenda and hearing yourself talk out loud. And to be honest, you can get that through some quite reasonable life coaching nowadays. So although I haven't tried a life coach.

Myself, I should do, I should test out one of these platforms. you know, that, I think that's another way for people to be able to access coaching. You know, obviously they can email me, they can watch the pod, watch the videos, listen to the podcast, but that might, that might be, another way for. For people to access it, just, just going right back.

So did you always want to be a lawyer? Was it something you knew you wanted to do?

No, no, I, I, I, I, I didn't Erica. I mean, I, I didn't really have a, you know, I, I, I wasn't sure what I wanted to, to, to do. when I left school, you know, I, I, I went to school in Ireland and, and, you know, I was at a, a school where they tended to encourage you to do medicine if you got good grades.

And actually, two of my siblings are, are doctors. and, probably because that's what they were told about the career guidance. And I, and I spent the, so I put medicine down as my first choice on You know, Ireland's equivalent of the UCAS form. And, and I, I went to stay with my sisters who were junior doctors in Dublin, that summer.

And I remember, you know, thinking, Oh my God, I'm not sure I want to be a doctor at all. They work far too hard. They, they, they work really late at night and you know, who'd want to do that? I mean, that's crazy. I'm not going to be a doctor. And I remember ringing my father the next day and morning to say, dad, you know, I'm.

I don't want to be a doctor. And he said, that's fine. You know, you don't have to be a doctor. And I said, yeah, but I put medicine down as my first choice on my UCAS form. And he said, well, you know, you can change it. And I said, yeah, I suppose I can, I can change it, but I'm going to need to change it. You know, I think the deadline is, is, is tomorrow.

So I'll need to change it today. Yeah, fine, I'll change it today. I love that's grand. And I said, well, what do I put? And I said, Oh, just put whatever you want. And I said, well, that's not very helpful, dad. You know, you're supposed to be the grown up. You're supposed to be giving me some good advice. And, and I remember he said.

It doesn't matter what degree you do. It's just a discipline. It's not going to determine what you do for the rest of your life. Do something you think you might like. And I, and you know, I look back on that advice at the time. I thought, Oh God, that's really not that helpful dad. But looking back on it now, he was, that's a very, very accurate, thing to say.

I think, it was quite visionary thing for him to say back all those years ago. But I still left with having to decide what I was going to put on my, on my UCAS form. So I, I thought, well, you know, what does any self respecting person who needs to make a decision do? They go to a fortune teller,

I

took myself off to a fortune teller and, and she told me I should be a lawyer.

Wow.

And I thought, well, why not? It's as good a thing as any. I like LLO.

So, is that what you then studied? Did you put law down on the UCAS form? Wow. Did she tell you anything else that came true or that didn't come true?

She told me I was going to have a son who would be a very famous. Concert pianist.

There is no sign of that. I have three boys. None of them play the piano. So I think that was not right. But she was right. She was right that I was, I ended up being a lawyer, but, but that's, that's, so I have, there's, you know, It's not like I, I had always wanted to be a lawyer. It was kind of quite, quite

well, there we are.

That could be like, forget the coach, just go to a fortune teller. Cause it's clearly done work very well for you. So maybe that's what people should be doing.

Amazing.

And do you have any regrets about like, do you look back and think, Oh, I actually, I wish I'd studied something else or I wish I'd become a doctor.

No, no, I definitely, I'm glad I, I, I didn't become a doctor. I, I, I don't, I don't think that would have been, you know, I honestly don't think I'd have been a very good doctor. Um,I, I, I didn't, you know, I did enjoy, I loved university. I mean, in Ireland, I did a law degree in university college Dublin and actually the amount of lectures and tutorials were quite, quite a small number compared to some other courses.

So I had a great time. And I did enjoy it. I mean, I slightly think now I would have loved to have done economics or something more, more business as well. But, but, but actually, you know, you can pick up a lot of that, even as a lawyer, as I did a mergers and acquisitions lawyer for many, many years, you pick up a lot actually about business doing that.

But that I guess I'm interested in that side of things now. So I kind of think. You know, had there been law and economics or something like that combined in my university, I'd have probably been quite keen to mix the law degree with the business degree as well.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be a really great option.

but I mean, I think most of us don't realize, I mean, I certainly didn't realize that I would have been, I was going to enjoy the commercial and economic side of things. I think maybe nowadays people are a bit more savvy, but it took me a while for, to realize that's what I was really interested in.

And just in terms of other things, so parts of your career or even your life, where you, where you either you used coaching and it was really helpful or where you look back now and think actually maybe at that point having a coach would have been really useful. I guess it's sort of challenging moments, you know, what did you do?

How did you deal with them? Have you got some examples of those?

Yeah, I think a coach. You know, but like you said, Erica, I think a big advantage of taking time out to talk to a coach is that you give yourself a bit of headspace to actually sit back and try and think things through or think about, try to work out yourself.

What is it that's bothering me or what is it that I, I don't feel, you know, I'm getting right or, and I think, I think sometimes just taking the time and giving yourself a little bit of, time to do that is key because I think a lot of the time we're all kind of, you know, we're all on the, on the treadmill running, running, running.

And just trying to get from pillar to post and thinking I just need to get this done and then it'll be fine but we never really step back to think no hold on a minute what is it that's, you know, what is it that I is really maybe there's something maybe bothering you or just it can sometimes be.

You're not even sure yourself what it is. And I think that's where sometimes trying to take a bit of time out and a time that I remember, was just really helpful. I mean, you have to find somebody that you can really talk to, you know, that you have to get that sort of rapport, I suppose. But, I remember once it was when I, you know, the boys now are 21, 18 and 15, but when they, when they were young, I think there would have been about, I

seven, four and one, and you know, they were very young and, and I was busy at work and I was really struggling because mainly because I was feeling that I'm not doing anything well.

You know, I remember, and I remember saying, you know, to the coach, you know, I used to feel good because I used to think I was able to do things about at 90 percent level. And now I think I'm doing. everything at about 60%. You know, I'm 60 percent at work and I'm 60 percent as a mother and I'm 60 percent about anything in my personal life and everything is, I feel very, you know, it's, it's just dispiriting because I don't feel I'm good at anything anymore.

And, and I remember her saying, well, are you doing your best? And I thought, I thought about that for a minute and I said, absolutely, I'm definitely doing my best because I have nothing left in the tank to give to anything, any of these things to do them better. And she said, well, then, you know, cut yourself some slack because you can't do any better than your best.

And I, and actually it was just a really good thing to say to me in that moment because I thought, Oh, okay, that is actually correct. I can't do any better than my best. So there's no point in beating myself up, because actually I just need to say I'm doing my best. So there you go. I'm doing my best. And it was good for me.

It helped me a lot at the time because I thought, okay, I'm not going to make myself feel bad anymore. That, you know, it's not better because actually it's my best. And therefore there's no point really in worrying about it. And I'm not going to be able to do any better than this right now. And, and so that was just, you know, a simple, but it was very helpful to me.

And I kind of calmed down about. And sort of just thought, okay, yeah, that's fine doing my best. I love that

because that comes up a lot. I mean, obviously, particularly with women, it comes up a lot. I'm don't feel like I'm doing anything else. Well, and just the hope, the practicality of looking at it, like, well, are you doing your best?

Could you do anything different? Like, is there, you know, are you really doing everything you can? Yes. So, so then you can't do anything different other than give up. If you're not going to give up, then stop. Winding yourself up about how you're not doing a good enough job. So that is an amazing piece of advice.

And it does, you know, it comes up a lot with, with women that I talk to who are running, you know, families and busy, busy careers. So that really is worth emphasizing that to everyone who. Who is listening? I mean, on that, I mean, I almost don't, don't like asking women with families about like how they managed, but, but, but I guess it is something that comes up a lot.

And I know that it's really useful to, for people, for other women to understand how many different approaches there are and how many different personalities there are, you know, both having family and doing a really high pressure role. And I just wondered, like, You know, how did you do it? How did you manage to combine the two?

And do you have like tips? Do you have top tips that you tell people?

I think it, you know, I think the one thing I, I, I would be very open about, Derek, is that there are times when it, it, it sometimes is, is, it's really, you know, it's, it's very hard at times, you know, and, and, and I think people. I think that's important to just be very honest about that because I think sometimes, and I'm sure, I'm sure lots of people are good at looking as if everything is very normal, but often it's very, very difficult for them.

And I think it's, you know, I think it's really important to feel able to talk about it. I think because the thing I think that puts a lot of stress on all of us is if we think that we're the only people that are struggling, we're the only people that are finding it hard. And, and it applies to so many things, you know, that you kind of thinking, God, I'm, I'm finding this really difficult.

And you look around, you think everybody else looks like they're coping really well. And, and I think often when people. And when people will speak about it openly, they'll often, everybody said, no, I'm finding it really difficult too. And, and so then it's so much. It's so, you feel so much, you feel so much kind of comforted if you think it's not just me that's finding this hard, you know, and then if you, you know, I think people, it's really important people, support each other a bit as well and, and, and, and are very, you know, open about what, about the things that are, that they're struggling with.

And, and I think. Having colleagues at work that are, that, that, that would cover for you at times and you will cover for them, I think is really important because there are things that you really, you know, if you don't. If you're not there for certain family events or family occasions, it's really, you feel really bad about it.

You need to be there for those, you know, I, I, I look back on, and I left my mom's 80th birthday early because of, of work and I, and I always regretted that, you know, because the whole family were together and I always look back and think that was, I shouldn't have, I really shouldn't have done that. And I, I think that's why, it is important for people to, to help each other out and to help cover for each other.

And, and then, you know, and we all can, you know, there'll be times when I need to be aware somebody else can cover and then I cover for them. And that to me is, is, is really important because that sort of a support network around you makes it. It makes it just more bearable, although it's still at times very hard.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, thank you for sharing that because I think it's interesting. I gave the headlines of your career and it is incredibly impressive. but behind that, you know, there's, you know, there's a, there's a lot of toil that, that goes into it. It's not as easy as it seems on the surface. People often say to me when I talk about my CV, they're like, Oh, that's really impressive.

And I'm like, Well, I'm quite old, so I've had a long time to gather up all these things. And it just isn't when you go underneath, there's something very different to what you see on the surface. So you sharing that, I think, and, and making people realize they're really not alone is incredibly helpful. So thank you for being so open.

And is there anything you do in terms of building resilience? Do you, do you like, do you do exercise? Do you meditate? Do you eat really healthy? Do you do any, are you like, I have to do this in order to maintain my resilience. Do you do anything?

I actually

feel much better when I do some exercise. I've noticed that, you know, sometimes I, I do try to, you know, exercise a couple of times a week.

And I noticed that when I don't, Erica, I feel much worse. I, you know, I have less energy. I feel a bit more down in the dumps about things. Things bother me more. So I've realized that for me anyway, I can cope much better when I get a bit of exercise. I, I mean, people talk about it, the endorphins that it releases.

I, I definitely think I notice I have more energy when I, when I, when I get a bit of exercise, I, I do tend to eat, quite healthily. But, and, and during, you know, I, I, I'm not good sleeper, which I think is a real problem actually. I, I, I do think that's, I, I think if you can. Sleep well. That is a great thing.

And, I'm not a good sleeper and I don't think that's a good at all. Actually, I wish I wish I was a better. I wish I slept better because I think when you do get a good night's sleep, it's amazing. You know, it's amazing how. Better things can look in the morning than they do the night before if you can get a good night's sleep.

And so I did this obviously as a, it does help heal the body, but I, I'm not a good sleeper, which is, I'm always trying to read books and sleeping better. Yeah, I don't know if I might sleep better.

I don't know whether the apps. I don't know whether the apps will work, like all the things that track. I have an aura ring now, and I'm like trying to do the get up the same time every day.

Now I've been told how to go to bed at the same time as well. It is. Yes. And then something happens that throws you off. So you can't do that. So, but I agree with you. I mean, it looks like increasingly everything comes down to sleep now is what they're saying. And obviously it's something in the eighties, we were sort of like, you know, sleep is for wimps type thing.

t I mean, you were at that in: 2021

I mean, did you, did that mean, did it mean something to you? Was it different? Because did you think, Oh, I'm the first female partner or were you just like, I'm getting on with it. It doesn't matter. And the press just ran away with it. Did it, did it? Did it feel different because you were the first woman to be senior partner in 183 years or whatever it was?

Yeah, I mean, look, I was delighted that, you know, I was delighted that there was a woman in, in the senior partner position, obviously I was delighted to be that, that woman, but I think it does. Yeah, I think it is really important, Erica, that, that there are women in the most senior positions in, in, in, in law firms and in oil businesses, because I think, I think that people, coming through as, as younger, women in, in the business need to sort of see role models and, And there's, you know, and I think it's good if they can see people at the most senior level who are women, because then I think they will think, well, this is obviously a place where, where I can aspire to, to do that as well.

And, and I, I, I'm a big believer in the benefit of diversity of all sorts and in, in, in, in, in business and generally in the world, to be honest, because I think. you know, whether it's, gender or race or LGBTQ plus or social mobility. I just think having people who have a different, perspectives on things, different experiences, different views on things, it's just so helpful.

If you're trying to solve complex issues, having people who can come, who can come, who can bring a different perspective. It's generally far better than everybody thinking the same way and, and so for me, it, it, it makes, it makes the workplace. I think we're more likely to be good at our job. I also think it's more likely to be enjoyable and for everybody.

If you have more. More diversity. And so, you know, I, I'm delighted to be in the position of being, senior partner because you, you, you know, you're very privileged in this position. You, you have the ability to, to, to bring some new ideas and to. to, suggest things that we can do to change things. And, and so I think it's, I'm very privileged to be in the position and I, and I want to make sure that I use my time in the position to, to make sure that we are bringing positive change and good change to things.

Yeah, I think it does really make a, I think it does really make a difference being able to look up and see people who look like you. who, who are doing what you did. I mean, I, I, in fact, someone who's now my coach supervisor was a partner, I think later, interestingly, and, and she was with me at ANO above me, like two years or so above me.

And so I'd watched her career, you know, I knew her a bit. And then, and then one day my husband came home and said, Oh, she's resigned. She's going off to do something different. And I, I can still remember where I was in the car. I remember thinking, does that mean that I can't do this? Like she's stopped doing it.

Has she stopped doing it? Cause she can't do it. Maybe I can't do it. And it was so, it was so interesting. I can literally remember where I was in the car when that happened. because I suddenly questioned, does that mean I can't do it? So seeing people there who have, you know, who look like you and who, you know, have a similar background is a, makes a huge.

Huge difference, I think. Yeah. I'm just, what were you going to say?

No, I was just going to say, I suppose linked to that, I, I, I think the benefit of having people who have just different experiences and will have done different things is that, you know, going back to what we were talking about earlier, when people are finding things difficult, you have, you need to have a variety of people that you can talk to about it so that.

You're not just getting hearing one thing that works for somebody you, you, we all benefit from talking to different people and thinking, Oh, okay, that's interesting. That works for you. I know that's something completely different. And it that, you know, to your point, Erica, it makes us all think, Oh, well, maybe that'll work for me.

but, but you need to get, you know, you need to hear different people. Perspectives on it because what works for one person won't work for you for another, but if you have the opportunity to ask a different, lots of different people about what, how are you doing this, then you're much better, much more likely to find something that resonates for you, you know, and that's why I think it's.

So important to have a good variety of people.

Absolutely. And then one thing I am interested in is like in law firms, we don't get a lot of training, like business training. We get business training, as in, we get to learn about businesses, like you said, because we're advising clients who are running businesses.

But in terms of first of all, that step up from being an associate into being a partner, but then also that step into being management of a law firm where you are running a huge business. I just wanted to like. Have you got advice about how people prefer, prepare for those transitions? Like, how do they become more like a business person, more commercially savvy?

It's a, it's a really good point. I think law firms are, it's, it's very interesting in the sense that you, you take somebody who's a good lawyer and you think that they're going to be. A good manager of a big business. And there's, you know, actually, that's interesting because you wouldn't take a dentist and think they could be a doctor.

So, so, you know, I, I do think it's a really important point that there, there needs, you know, It's a very different role and, and it's a role for which you need some training and some help. And so, you know, I, I've always been kind of keen to make sure that there is more, more training for people who take on different roles because it is a very different, different thing.

And, and, and, and just generally, and, you know, I think there's a, in the law firm, generally there's. Often lots of technical training for us as lawyers, but I think there should be lots of training around, you know, people skills and business development and, you know, the, the other things that make you good at your job, as well as just being good at the technical side of law, if you see what I mean, and, and, you know, I, I think that.

that it's so important to be able to think about how can I improve on all the different parts of that, the package that will make me really good at what, what I do. And, and I think more training around that, would, would both be very beneficial and very interesting for, for, for lawyers.

Yeah, yeah, great.

and then I have to ask you, you know, you're in this position where you are at the top of management of a hugely influential firm. I mean, in terms of the future of the legal market, in terms of private practice and solicitors and the sort of city, what do you think, what skills are people going to need coming into the law?

Where, what do you think will change in like the next five to ten years?

Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question, Erica. I think that. I think people, who have a very open mind about everything actually, and are prepared to change what they're doing if they need to, because I think that, you know, and I look back over the last couple of years with everything, both in terms of the pandemic, but then geopolitics.

technology. I mean, we're going to see, I suspect, a lot of change with our AI. and I,

and I

think it's. It's going to be a really important time to have the mindset that, change can bring better things, not, change is bad. You know? So I think, I think that's going to be key, and I think there will be lots and lots of opportunities.

I mean, I, I I don't, I think, artificial intelligence is going to be really interesting and could mean that, you know, we have a lot more time to spend on the parts of the job that we probably would genuinely find more interesting anyway, and we can use technology to be much more to do some of the things that maybe we would define less interesting, much more efficiently than we would have done them.

Yeah. so I, I, I, I think there's. Lots of benefits. And I think, you know, for the legal profession, I think there'll be lots of opportunities, but I think people, I think people need to kind of want, you know, just say, you know what, this is, I'm going to, I'm going to be prepared to pivot or to do things differently or to look for different opportunities or to, and I think, you know, getting out there and talking to clients and listening to what people are saying and what people want, and then trying to be responsible I think that's going to be really, really key.

I mean, I think we're, you know, I, I think the legal, I mean, I think lawyers are, are lucky in terms of, whatever, whether there's a very strong economy or not so strong in the common economy, there's often, there's often legal work to do. And I think sometimes we take that a bit for granted. And I think actually we're.

We're quite lucky as a profession that way. but I think it's going to be a really interesting, a really interesting time. Erica, but I do think people are going to, I think people with a. That sort of interest in, in being flexible and sort of seeing it as a learning opportunity rather than, Oh, I have to change what I'm doing.

I think that'll be, I think that's where people would get the most out of, out of, out of the time ahead. Because I think it will, I think things are already, there's so much change and it feels like it's just going to continue and actually speed up.

Yeah. So embrace, embrace the change, be flexible and open minded, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. And

enjoy it, you know, kind of, kind of see, see the, see the opportunity to, to learn and try and enjoy it instead of, you know, and, and, because it is easy also, it is easy to feel quite stressed by it. I think I, I mean, I worry quite a lot about, about things. So, but then I tried to sort of say, well.

There could be, you know, some great opportunities here as well.

Yeah. And I, and the job, I mean, when I was a, a trainee, I was running around sort of putting, putting bits of paper in envelopes and underlining things to show where the words had changed. That's what I spent most of my day doing. So my, you know, that people don't have to do that anymore.

So that's like that whole job sort of has disappeared. And yet we all adapted and we were still needed. So things changed, but you know, roles change with them. And then finally, like your, your three pieces of advice to your younger self, you know, what, what would they be?

Oh, so I would say, don't, you know, don't be afraid to, to do things.

you know, if, if, because. Because you learn a lot from them and the worst thing that could happen is it doesn't work out, but you learn a lot, you know, I do think you learn more from things not working out the way you wanted them to, then if they work out the way you wanted them to, because when it works like the way you wanted to do, you kind of just think you don't necessarily analyze that because you think, well, that was what you expected.

So you sort of just move on. It's when things don't work out the way you want them to, that you've got a much better opportunity to think about it. that and to learn from it. So I think trying things and not, not being too, not kind of feeling bad if it doesn't work out, just see it as a learning opportunity.

I think, you know, that'd be the first thing. So to give things a go. I think, you know, and this is sort of linked to it, but I do think seizing opportunities, don't put things off. to sort of have this idea, well, it's not the right time. I'll wait on, there's no right time. I mean, one thing I've really realized is if, you know, I used to say, well, it's not the right time, but then I began to realize there's never, you know, for me anyway, there's never a right time.

So just, just, just, just do it because I, I, you know, I'm a, I am a procrastinator, but, but I never, I've never yet decided the time is right. So I know that I know that often it's not. So you just, you just. You just say, you know what, just dive in, just do it, and then the other thing, ask for help. Ask for help, you know, I definitely, definitely at times didn't ask for, I, I sort of thought, Oh, I better not because, you know, either people will expect that I'll know what I'm doing or people will, will think I don't know what I'm doing or, or people won't want to help me.

I made all sorts of assumptions and, and actually the truth is, usually when you ask people For help, they're really keen to help you. I mean, that's the, that's the thing that's genuinely quite affirming about, about things that often when you ask for help, people go sure. And you think why? And so I now ask, because again, The worst thing that'll happen is people will say, I'm really sorry, I don't have time or I can't, or I'm not able to, I don't know why, you know, why are you asking me?

But again, you're no worse off. Sorry you asked me for three, but I do have to say, don't make assumptions. That's the other thing I've stopped doing. Don't make assumptions. And I would say, neither I should make assumptions, nor should anybody make assumptions. About me or about you. I think there's a lot of well meaning, well meaning misassumptions made about people.

That's probably not a word, but you know what I mean, people, people think, well, make an assumption about you and, and it's not right. And, you know, so it's much better. I think much better. Don't make assumptions. Just ask, just ask people, just ask them because, you know, it can be, you. It can really delay progress by making assumptions about people, and it can be quite unfair, and it's often well meaning, but, but, but it's not, not right.

And so I, I, I, I think it's really important that people don't make assumptions.

And Digi, can I just dive in, like, how did you get, how did you get over the like asking for help and worrying about, Oh no, is it going to look like I don't know what I'm doing or I'm not good enough? And that, that, cause that I think does hold people back.

Sometimes they have to pretend that they know exactly what they're doing. what advice would you give

them? It's definitely true and it's probably, It's probably something that maybe as you get older, you realize that other people don't know what they're doing either. Again, I think, certainly, at least for me, anyway, when I was younger, I did make assumptions that everybody knew what they were doing.

As I got older, I realized, actually. They don't. Yeah. And so maybe you get more comfortable, saying, actually, I, I, I, I'm, I'm not following this or maybe it's just me, but I, I don't follow that. I don't know what, you know, then you'll

probably find that then they can't explain it to you either because they couldn't look at it.

Yeah. Okay. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, look, thank you. That is all. Fantastic advice. And I just have to say thank you so much for taking the time. I really, really appreciate it. And it's been really lovely talking to you. So thank you very much. Likewise.

No, thank you very much, Erica. Lovely talking to you too.

Thank you.