Ep#6 - In Conversation with Stephanie Pagni, General Counsel of Monzo Bank on Navigating a Non-linear Career in Law and the Evolving Role of Lawyers in the Commercial World

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[00:00:21] I see her as a real role model for women working in the law, and I think this will be a great conversation. So Stephanie, you've had a really interesting and varied career. Could I just ask you to maybe tell us a little

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[00:00:43] so I, I've been working in law for over 30 years. showing my age now. funnily enough, my first job, I, I studied law at university. I did a master's in law, but then I didn't go on to become immediately qualified. I actually went to work, in a small derivatives house, Sumitomo Bank Capital Markets.

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[00:01:15] I worked at the side of a desk, a trading desk, sort of undertaking all the documentation and so forth. but eventually, I left there, I spent a couple of years there. I worked for UBS after that. then I went to Credit Suisse, where I met one of my best friends today and also the. Godmother to my son, and we, from that point, she was also paralegal and we persuaded the then general counsel to, adopt training contracts for lawyers.

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[00:01:59] And I pivoted after that and became a litigator. so I moved into a very different field, which I find it found absolutely fascinating, particularly the psychology of litigation. It sort of calls on all your skills as a lawyer, really. Across a whole range of areas, I worked for Alan Overy for a few years and I left Alan Overy as a senior associate and I went to work for Barclays, as you know, that's how we met.

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[00:02:39] And then finally, I obviously jumped ship and I went to Monzo. this is a sort of very heavily mission driven company, which is where I've been today. And I've been there for the last three years, so it's quite, it's been quite a journey, linear path.

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[00:03:01] so you've done many, many things. And also you're in this incredible position and you started life as a paralegal, which a lot of people are having to do nowadays. So it shows you what you can achieve.

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[00:03:16] to demystify things because sometimes you forget when you've been in, somewhere so long and people look up and they think, Oh, you know, how do I get to that lofty high? And of course, it's, it's always much more complicated than it looks. It's never been as seamless as it looks. I talk of it as sort of almost like there's no, there's no sort of.

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[00:03:49] Anyway, if you're not doing that, you're probably not stretching yourself and learning and feeling a little bit outside your comfort zone, which I'm sure we'll come on to talk about, because that's actually an important part of personal growth.

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[00:04:11] home?

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[00:04:30] They're saying this, you know, that's not the way to think about it. Obviously, there's never a right time if you're going to think about it in that respect. Yeah. I actually partly regret going back so soon after, I think parental leave today, I would have taken more at that point in time because it goes so fast.

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[00:05:02] but I just felt that I should get back and so forth. I don't think it had any bearing on my career whatsoever, by the way, longer or shorter. So, but I, I, and then of course it's just a constant juggling act as it always is. when you've got home demands, you know, you know that my son was sick for a long time when he got 15, he developed an autoimmune illness.

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[00:05:37] I know, I know from speaking to my children, my stepchildren as well, that, that it's important that they, they, they've grown up and my son's grown up in particular with a very gender neutral view of, of, of, of roles. In the world, you know, there's no role that he sees as defined as whether you're, you know, whatever gender you are, holding that role.

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[00:06:17] And I nearly went down that path when I was 18. I nearly studied chemistry and went in a completely different direction. So. Maybe, maybe I would do that today. There's still time,

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[00:06:39] let me pivot slightly, and let's just talk about coaching. So have you ever had coaching during your

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[00:07:29] Ultimately. But that was my first coaching intervention. I think was at Barclays around 2007 2008. and that that was firstly about really, yeah. Yeah, very much focused on leadership, developing abilities, thinking about leading through others rather than just doing the work yourself and help you to adapt to the idea of, sort of, you know, coach player, coach, not just player.

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[00:08:11] So having somebody talk to you about the different strategies and ways of doing that, it was, it was incredibly helpful.

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[00:08:33] Yeah.

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[00:09:03] And if you're moving into a more senior leadership role and you are engaging more people, and perhaps we'll talk a little bit as well about that big transition between from what I call managing, managing local teams to scale leadership. Very large teams that that is a very different skill set. Most people don't naturally acquire that you need to be able to talk to somebody about what the Try it and test your strategies are for that.

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[00:09:49] yourself, the, the work and so forth. And I, so yeah, I, I personally found it extremely helpful, you know, going through those, some kind of those, those, those sorts of sessions.

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[00:10:09] Do you take time out now to sit back and think strategically? How do you get that more time, you know, that strategic input? How do you, how do you do

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[00:10:25] One of the things I say to my team, so on a regular basis, we're actually quite fortunate at Mondrian that we try to, keep some section of Fridays free of meetings. It doesn't always work out that way, but it's actually quite a good discipline because I, I sort of label it with my team. Think of it as your capital investment time.

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[00:11:03] What do I need to think about? from a kind of team structuring standpoint or the people's development needs or how do I think about setting things up right? and, and that can, sometimes you, you can't really afford to leave that till the end of the year, but it's a good checkpoint. Obviously when things go a bit quieter to take that time, that's exactly what I'm doing.

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[00:11:37] And that is that I guess that is the core component of being a leader. and that's the bit that, you know, doesn't come that to you naturally. You know, you learn through some of these coaching interventions because coaches can bring to bear all the strategies that other leaders. have deployed successfully, obviously without reaching any confidences.

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[00:12:07] And then you mentioned this transition into scale leadership. Can you talk a bit more about that? And what, what is it you think people need to do from Managing sort of more local teams to really taking it up to scale leadership.

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[00:12:35] But if you think about that from a practical standpoint, as the team starts to grow, Not only does that become more and more difficult because imagine if you were spending all of your time in one to ones with every single team member every week, you would then have no time to actually get on with some of the other work and actually deliver on some of the core outputs.

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[00:13:13] So, one of the tools I've deployed when that started to happen is, You know, having leadership lunches where with specific cohorts in the in the wider team. So you take a cohort of directors or VPs or whatever level people are, and you have leadership lunches with them once a month or once every other month, and you coalesce around a specific thematic topic.

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[00:13:53] Talk about your career insights, you know, sort of demystify some of it for them. And then you give them, you know, fair, consistent access to that leader in a way that that that's actually that just is more consistent and it's there rather than just perhaps spending time. And it would be unintentional.

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[00:14:24] And that goes right through. I mean, you yourself have managed very large teams, understanding how you can. enable the next tier of leadership effectively, you know, setting out clearly what your expectations are of them, giving them accountability for things to run with things and deliver things and sort of most unlock their own leadership capability and potential spend time, invest time in having ensure they're coached.

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[00:15:01] And do you think, I mean, one of the things I deal with quite a lot that comes up, you know, time and time again is delegation.

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[00:15:19] Well, usually there's a reason that's happening. so it could be a variety of reasons.

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[00:15:44] Help to help help them to change the way they're operating and their daily practices. sometimes it's because they don't, maybe they don't trust the person that are delegating to, or they lack confidence in their ability to delegate in an effective way. If that's the case, and obviously. That needs to be evaluated and perhaps, perhaps there isn't a reason not to trust them, but perhaps they need to find a different way of engaging with each other.

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[00:16:31] But by and large, I always found lawyers like practical strategies as well. So that practical, tangible things that you can do differently. So I talk very much in terms of. What can you do differently? So, for example, you could say to the individual who's, who's trying but struggling to delegate, find discrete pieces of work that somebody else can do, explain what the parameters are that you're looking for to send them off to do it and ask them to package up and then bring it back to you.

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[00:17:09] Yeah. I mean, it is hard because it is, you know, you'll get, you're giving away your sort of comfort zone by giving it to someone else.

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[00:17:37] Or could someone else do it? Do the things where it's really important that it's you doing it is, is one of the things I talked to people about. It's just a really useful checkpoint to say

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[00:17:54] And that's the best, isn't it? I often say I just couldn't do my, my job without effective delegation, without really good people under me and delegating effectively. It's my responsibility to find successful routes through to delegating effectively. I mean, you, you know, you can't run a scale. You can't run a large team without effective delegation.

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[00:18:18] So I was going to ask you about, like sort of challenging times you've had or perhaps a topic where you've thought, do you know what, looking back, or even if there's something now. I could have really done with some coaching around that and maybe we'll just delve into a sort of challenge

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[00:18:38] Yeah, I think I'm thinking about a time way back at Barclays when I was, I joined when I was sort of relatively junior, but I remember working on a project. With, individuals and working unbelievably hard, like really long hours and thinking I was being unbelievably effective and then being up for promotion and just being passed over for that promotion on the basis that I wasn't visible.

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[00:19:28] It's more, getting out there and engaging and building relationships and building sponsorship. We'll talk about sponsorship because I used to think I used to underrate the significance of sponsorship throughout my career on the basis that you're a brilliant lawyer. Why just you should just get ahead of merit.

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[00:20:05] Obviously, as a lawyer, when you're coming from a law firm, that becomes quite critical in house to, and it's not, I'm not talking about building partial relations, I'm just talking about, you understand the point I'm driving at, which is just really sponsorship and ensuring you're engaging with the right people that they understand.

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[00:20:31] particularly not many women. I mean, that comes up a lot. I think, I mean, Sheryl Sandberg called it tiara syndrome, you know, wait, you're doing an amazing job and waiting in your office for someone to come with the velvet pillow with the tiara on to say you deserve this because you've been so amazing, but it's, I think people find it really hard to work out.

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[00:21:03] you approached that? You said it, because I remember being a little girl in classroom, I mean, when we grew up as well, girls didn't really put their hand up even.

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[00:21:29] So, I would even be some of the things I did to pivot were actually, this is one of the most effective ways I think of, of getting yourself noticed in the right way. And I, I've often shared this with some of my team throughout the Throughout time, which is to think about a way in which you can interact with business stakeholders, which where you can invite more than your job, your sort of usual circle of stakeholders to the room.

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[00:22:23] You know, we've obviously been, I've had separate coaching interventions on that with groups, you know, in terms of doing the old Vic course and so forth to demystify, the confidence building that even professionals engage in, you know, professional actors and actresses. And it's really helps, I think.

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[00:23:07] I certainly would do that for mine, wherever or where it's feasible. If somebody's done the work, I will want them to have the opportunity to present on it. I think that's really important to be sort of provide that stage. That platform.

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[00:23:25] I mean, in terms of sponsorship, like, cause I think again, there have been formal sponsorships programs in organizations that don't really work because sponsorship isn't something you can sort of parcel out. So how do you go about getting sponsorship from

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[00:23:43] Because there's obviously, as you say, networking events, bringing people together generally with common interests. And they could, that can help obviously creating senior leadership forums and so forth and getting people to know people because that wouldn't otherwise meet and get to know each other.

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[00:24:21] and for you to be able to show that you can lead that piece of work. So people need to be prepared to sort of feel uncomfortable, I think. and then have an opportunity to, most of that true sponsorship, as you know, comes with working with people and building trust and building respect for the, you know, your work ethic and the product you're delivering and the support you're providing them.

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[00:25:02] You have to, you have to look for the opportunity though. You can't expect somebody to deliver it for you. Yeah, yeah,

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[00:25:20] I mean, it made me quite angry when I first listened to it, because there's still, we're still doing a lot to To make girls feel different, and even teachers, are still, if, if they're, if they're, if they're putting out a question and no one answers, they will still call on the boys, because they don't want to embarrass the girl, they're worried about embarrassing the girls, or upsetting the girls, and so the boys get called on more, so they get used to not knowing the answer, maybe having to make it up.

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[00:26:05] So it's so interesting. We're trying to protect people, but actually we're not doing them. We're not doing them any favors. I mean, I would say. On sponsorship as well. I talk sometimes about a personal board of directors, and having people you can go to for advice. So I would say to people, like, if you see someone that you admire in an organization, or you come across them and you, you'd just like to.

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[00:26:44] But you could form a relationship by just following up with someone. It feels, it feels scary because you're putting yourself out there. But again, just say, what's the worst that can happen? The worst that can happen is they could say, no, I'm really sorry. I'm too busy at the moment and sometimes I would do that if people contacted me, but I'd usually say I'm really busy, but here's someone else.

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[00:27:08] it can be really good advice and actually on that because I've always felt. a bit sort of more, you know, I should be self sufficient or don't want to bother that person or first of all, there have been, I've not had like any fixed mentors in my life, but I've certainly have people from whom I have learned who've been like quasi mentors where I've always thought, Oh, I like the way that they do that or, and take the best of the way you see somebody interact will be really effective and maybe also learn about how not to do things as well in that context.

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[00:27:54] So I think that's a really important point. And, but you do have to take, as you say, responsibility for working out who that board of directors should be, or those, those few mentors that are going to pass through your career in your life. And it's, it is a gender neutral thing as well. Like it's been men and women, you know, depending on particular circumstances.

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[00:28:30] And, and

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[00:28:44] difficult to do.

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[00:28:47] Yes, I think you always think of it in terms of, you know, so first of all, I think part is partly what drives your value system. And I'm not suggesting that women don't want to be well paid, but generally speaking, and it's certainly the case for me, you'll find that I need to feel rewarded in other right ways.

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[00:29:32] I think almost without exception. I mean, maybe some, but certainly in my experience, and all the conversations I've ever had in my career, where people have demanded more money, I've always been, always been, started by, I mean, I just find it so much easier. I don't know why that is, but just, To put it straight out there, but it is an important conversation to have, because, if nothing else, well every, every organization has an interest today in ensuring sort of gender parity when it comes to pay and so forth, so, but it would be good to have, I think, for women to have tools to help make, equip them to have those conversations in a way that's not, that's, that's perceived as perfectly fair, you know, perfectly, Reasonable, and it's not, it's not you're asking for something unreasonable.

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[00:30:14] Yeah. It's interesting because we think if I say to people like, he'll say, I don't want to ask for, you know, I feel really uncomfortable. I'm like, what's the worst that could happen, which is often a really good coaching question. The worst that could happen is they could say no. And sometimes people have said to me, that makes me then question, Oh, maybe I'm not good enough.

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[00:30:48] So then we'll go through like, well, so how likely is it for them to think that? What would you think if someone came to you in the same situation and generally they just think, okay, that's impressive. I wish I could be more like that. and, and what are they more likely to think if they, even if they did think you were really pushy, is it going to really impact negatively on your career or is it just going to mean they're going to.

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[00:31:25] And often when people have done that exercise, they feel much more comfortable going and saying. You know, this is why I'm worth it. This is why I'm asking for this. Do it in a really reasonable way. Try not to get emotional about it and accept if the no comes, it doesn't matter, like you asked, the great thing is you asked and the no means nothing because you don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

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[00:31:54] Totally fair. And actually, I'm now thinking in the past, back in the past, when I've had those conversations, I've always equipped myself, first of all, with benchmarking data to go in with a scientific basis for the request.

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[00:32:19] Number one, understand that. Are you bench on that in terms of where the company is in terms of the, the, you know, the gradient of which he aspires to pay, or others in your similar roles of being paid and so forth that if that's your starting point, nobody can ever say that's an unreasonable conversation to have.

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[00:32:52] There'll be other reasons and there's nothing wrong with unpicking them, but there's unlikely to be personal to the individual. It's just that women may have a tendency to feel that it is, which may determine them from having the conversation in the first place. I've always found it. easier just to say, well, what's the objective criteria that we're actually discussing here?

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[00:33:23] so before I go on to ask you like your three pieces of advice to your younger self Can I just wanted to cover two topics that we've touched on?

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[00:33:58] shape lawyer.

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[00:34:28] And you will put yourself in the, you know, most valuable, of strategic leaders, partners for, there are many lawyers out there who. Who who succeeded that and actually could become CEOs themselves or run companies minimum don't want to do it was a different point, but they're there. They can be phenomenal partners, obviously, to the people leading those businesses on.

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[00:35:09] It just happens to be, and it does put you lawyers in a unique position because. then you start to be able to look forward and horizon scan and imagine the developments that might be coming down the track, both to shape them, but also to try and influence where the business goes next, the strategic plans, how it can avoid, you know, issues and problems, but also how it can create opportunity, commercial opportunity.

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[00:35:48] have you got any practical tips as to how to become?

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[00:35:54] MBA, you don't have to do an MBA to do it, but you need to understand financials. You need to understand the commercial side. Imagine you're the CEO and sit there and say, do I intuitively, instinctively understand the business plans, strategic plans? Can I pick holes in them a little bit?

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[00:36:26] To look around the corners, look over the horizon and help shape things. and that's the best way to do it. You won't do that if you're just focusing on interpreting the law and actually. Your job's going to be redundant as well, if that's what you do, coming on to the AI point, because the machine can do that.

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[00:37:03] into huge productivity gains, but it also means the shape of the lawyer's role is going to change and it's going to become even more important that you can be that sort of advisor who's knitting everything together because the one thing the machines are not good at is, is multi Dimensional thinking, you know, lots of complex inputs, at least for not for a long time, I suspect they're going to have that level of intelligence.

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[00:37:46] Yeah, which should make it for a more interesting role,

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[00:38:02] That does mean for a different skill set where lawyers are going to have to be trained on understanding, you know, that there'll be data scientists and, and sort of, and not even necessarily coders, but people who can certainly understand the inputs and outputs to machines and quality assure what's being written because, as you know, they still.

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[00:38:35] You know, having a legal qualification or under or being practiced in the law is not going to be enough. You're going to have to have, a greater commercial acumen and, you know, some, some form of. What reasonable form of understanding, I think about the way that the models operate and algorithms operate and so forth, but it's really interesting time.

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[00:39:12] And all of these, different.

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[00:39:24] say? So number one, I would tell myself, don't worry about the fact that you've gone down this nonlinear path and you seem to be doing something more.

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[00:39:58] So that would be lessons. Advice number one is just get out there and get some experience in something you enjoy doing, even if it doesn't look directly relevant, to your becoming qualified lawyer. just find something you're interested in. It might be a field or an area of industry. You could work in there for a while because that's just incredibly valuable to teach you about how that industry operates because ultimately to be a real effective advisor, you have to understand, you know, the nuts and bolts of the industry.

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[00:40:48] That just how you should feel and it's difficult because obviously you need to get that right. You don't want to do it so frequently that you're feeling continuously uncomfortable, but you should certainly feel uncomfortable for the first 6 to 12 months of any new venture where you're really stretching yourself.

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[00:41:17] That's the single most important thing. Because, and you, you know, I know what drives me is curiosity and like, just feeling like I'm learning something new all the time. Also working in a really good high values organization where everybody's, you know, works in the same kind of value system. but just work out what's important to you.

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[00:41:48] it's interesting because you say life is long. What normally everyone tells you is life is short, but you're right. Careers are long. It's great.

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[00:41:55] because I mean, I've been working for nearly, I worked it out the other day, almost 30 years now, which is really scary because it feels like it's going really fast. But on, but actually objectively viewed, I've probably got another 20 years to go. Maybe not a full time exec career, but certainly maybe a non exec opportunities and so forth.

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[00:42:26] Yeah. And learning,

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[00:42:41] It could be a language. It could be the piano. It could be, be something really, you know, how to do a computer game. Something really simple.

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[00:43:07] Yeah. So, it's right, but it's absolutely true, isn't it? Yeah.

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[00:43:22] you. Pleasure to speak to you too.

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