Ep#15 A Journey from Journalism to Law: Insights from Terry Miller's Distinguished Career

[: 00:00:00

But sadly, I never actually managed to meet her in person whilst I was practicing. And then my husband started singing Terry's praises when he came across her as a board member at Rothesay Life, the company he works for. for her. So I finally plucked up the courage and asked for an introduction. And I'm delighted that Terry is here today to tell us a bit about herself and to share some of her learnings from her long, distinguished, and really interesting career.

Welcome, Terry.

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[00:00:56] Erica: it was definitely you. Yes, yes. Well, that's not my intention. so, but yes, no, I used to hear a lot. I used to hear your name a lot, but I never managed to, to meet you.

So you, so I'm so pleased when I finally did get to meet you. Well, I appreciate it. Yeah. So I was wondering, can I? Can I take you back to the beginning? Cause I think we'd really love to hear a bit about your background. Where did you grow up? Did you always want a career in law? What were your, what were your early years of practice life?

Like just, yeah, tell us a bit about yourself.

[: 00:01:25

Was to cover court cases.

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[00:01:44] Terry: some point, I decided that standing up and talking, and ideally being able to do so in a persuasive and compelling way was something that I thought I could do. and the opportunity presented itself, as it happened several years later, we moved to a new city. I wasn't able to get a job as a newspaper reporter, and they had at that point, open to law school in that city.

And I decided to go to law school. I have to say, from the very beginning, I've always enjoyed. Both this, the study of law, the academics, I think researching and finding applicable precedents. I find always still very engaging. but I think probably my most enjoyable role, was when I became a lawyer at the securities and exchange commission.

I was, ultimately, chief of the enforcement branch. Of the securities and exchange commission in the Washington regional area, Washington, D. C. and that was fantastic because it was being able to investigate and prosecute cases. which meant that, like an investigated journalist, I was deciding what I needed to pursue and how I needed to build the case, but I had subpoena power as well.

So that was very helpful. And we had some really interesting cases. I was very lucky. We had a very high profile case, for example, involving Reverend Moon and the Unification Church. And because absolutely, and because this was a government agency, with a fairly lean staff, I was able to take responsibility for cases, including that 1, I think, at an earlier point in my career that might otherwise have been the case.

So, that was great training. I loved that. and then decided after a period of time that it would make sense to think about moving into private practice. and there were a number of reasons for that. I think, I felt that I had had a really good, grounding as it were in a lot of the areas that were relevant to being a lawyer in the world of financial services by working for the Securities and Exchange Commission.

But I also wanted to, I think, see what it was like to be part of, building the confidence of the client and developing a sort of model for clients to pursue, particularly when we dealt with, as we did at that law firm, with people wanting to go public. To list shares, and that was a very interesting thing to do at the end of about 6 years or so at that law firm.

My husband decided that he wanted to move to England. He's English. and we moved, and at that point, it happened to coincide with big bang. and there was a great premium on, investment banks in particular, looking for people that had experience of regulation and security and exchange commission experience became very relevant.

tside of the United States in: 1989

[00:05:03] Erica: 1989. So, well, a lot since then. Number two lawyer. Yeah, yeah,

[: 00:05:12

However, it was a very, very different world. and Goldman Sachs at that point was quite a small. organization, it was very derivative of the business that was headquartered in New York and obviously over the intervening period until 2006. Part of the immense fascination of that job was helping the business to grow in Europe and in Asia and ultimately to, I think, become responsible for all of the legal.

sort of activities outside of the United States, which is where my job eventually evolved.

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Was that difficult?

[: 00:06:12

So. No, I don't think it was difficult. I actually worked throughout most of my law school career. I clerked for one of the local judges, which was very good because there was a very good practical understanding of the rules of civil procedure and trial procedure, which you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

[: 00:06:58

[00:07:05] Terry: My final year of law school, I applied to a number of different U. S. federal government agencies. My husband at that point was keen to move to Washington from where we were. We were in Ohio and, I applied to, the I.

R. S. the internal revenue service. I'm not really sure why I did that. I had done a tax course, but in later years, I've started to think that maybe on a Wednesday afternoon, looking at the minutiae of. the tax code might not be the most exciting thing in the world, but, I, I did have offers from several agencies and the Securities and Exchange Commission was one that appealed to me the most.

[: 00:07:42

I don't know if they even still exist, today.

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To, to a bank in Washington, D. C. called Diplomat National Bank, which is basically Korean, kind of government influence, sources and it was done by having a number of people become shareholders in the bank, but they had no knowledge or understanding that they were shareholders. We interviewed probably 25 of them in New York.

It was a joint. Effort with the control of the currency and the attorney's office in New York, and all of the people that we were able to interview, they had no understanding of the fact that they were shareholders, but that was the issue. And that was the reason for why the securities and exchange commission was involved.

[: 00:09:03

I mean, 1989 and the city, and compared to now, I mean, Just such different places. I mean, it'd be amazing to hear you talk about what it was like to go through that journey with the city, but also with Goldman. I mean, that, that's about the time I think I started work and we, you know, I was not allowed to wear trousers to the office.

It, you know, women were not allowed to wear trousers. And it seems, I think young people don't believe me when I tell them that story nowadays, but it was a completely different place.

[: 00:09:50

The broker that was responsible for the listing was headed that team was headed by a woman and I was a woman lawyer and I remember saying this, to people when I arrived in London, and it was just. People thought I was just making that up, you know, what are you, you know, that wasn't really the case. at that point, people in Washington were all the all I think it was very common for women to be wearing trouser suits.

But the 1st time. I wore 1 on the trading for Goldman says it did provoke commentary. Yeah. And, you know, the, it was a very, the other thing I would say is that it was very, very common for me. I'm sure the same with you to be the only person in the room when there was a business discussion and people sometimes making the assumption that you were the secretary or were there to take orders for coffee.

[: 00:11:03

And he was like, no, no, I'm the husband. This is the partner. So that was some years later. So yeah, those assumptions continue.

[: 00:11:28

Terry Miller, because nobody would have assumed that I was any other man. So,

[: 00:11:52

at the same time, what, what were your key lessons that you taught, that you took away in terms of how to guide an organization through that?

[: 00:12:13

I mean, in the 1st instance, there were only 2 of us in Europe. And so we handled everything that was coming up from the trading floor from investment banking from asset management. It was fantastic. Right? I mean, very busy in many respects, but to be able to understand that range of businesses and to build a relationship with at that point, where a fairly small group of people was amazing.

So the thing that I found really. Not challenging, but to think about how you wanted to develop your team as it became apparent that you were not going to be able to do everything yourself and the ability to think about what it means to develop the team and to delegate. Effectively, we've all had that issue where you think I'm going to give somebody this particular job to do.

Oh, I could do it so much faster. So much better. You have to resist that particular impulse, or you will never be able to delegate effectively and to develop the right. Kind of oversight and be there if there were questions and to make sure that people. Could always come back to me on my team. If they had a question, all of those things are absolutely essential to beginning to build out your own kind of sphere of influence and how you actually manage your responsibilities.

And I think we've all seen instances where people just find it really, really hard to let go. Yeah. And then there's, there's no good outcome to that isn't they become overburdened. They're burnt out their stress. They make the wrong decisions. And at the same time, they're not getting the benefit of bringing in people who might know more than they do about particular area who might have more energy at a particular day who might have more time on a particular day.

So I think that was the biggest. Lesson that that cusp when you've got to begin to delegate and decide how you want to do that and how to build from that.

[: 00:14:30

and, and sometimes that is. Hard to deal with. and I don't know, do you have an answer to that? If, if obviously, often, no one is going to be as good as you, at least in your own opinion. so you have to accept that you might be able to do it better, but you'll be always doing it if you don't let go.

But if, if, if you feel, you know, if you feel the team isn't strong enough, how, or someone in your team says, I can't delegate because people I'm delegating to aren't good enough at the moment, how would you answer that?

[: 00:15:06

So even as the team gets bigger, and I had a policy at Goldman Sachs of wanting people to actually have physical proximity to the businesses that they supported. So they actually had chairs, for example, in the trading floor. But they needed to come back to the legal department at least once a week for our weekly meetings.

And obviously, I remained the person responsible for hiring, firing and promoting them, which was really, really important. And I think having that point of contact. At least once a week, what are you doing? How are you doing? Bear in mind that at that point, I would have had my own relationships with some of the key business heads.

And I would check in from time to time to make sure that it was all working. I remember somebody telling me at an early stage, 1 of the, the business heads. So we really, really like this new hire. He's great. And we know you're not going to let him do anything stupid. I mean, which I think, you know, and that wasn't said in a patronizing way, but it meant that they knew that I had retained enough contact and the right kind of relationship with the lawyer to make sure that the business person could feel comfortable and actually to say to the business person, look, if there's something about this, it's troubling you, you know, come and talk to me as well, but you know, we've all made mistakes.

I mean, I think it will be years about the things that I've done. I've never. You know, been in a situation where I can say, well, I've absolutely always done that 100 percent correctly. So, sometimes you do have to let people make a mistake. You want them to tell you when they've made a mistake so that you can fix it.

You always want to emphasize to the team that never tried to self medicate because it's just right. But I think that lesson about letting people go a little bit, but keep the tie in the right sort of way and make sure that they know that, you know, you're there to support them really is part of how that has to go.

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[00:17:36] Terry: I think in the first instance, it was more on the job. It was more identifying that there was some particular area that we knew was going to require quite a lot of focus and that I either didn't have the bandwidth or. Didn't have the expertise, an example would be when we brought on board somebody who was the 1st in house employment lawyer.

That was a big thing at that point. You tended to outsource it and it was clear that there were. Ongoing challenges in terms of how we were building out the business, making sure we had an efficient recruitment process in situations where things didn't work out that we had an appropriate. And efficient process for dealing with issues if we had redundancy programs, how those were managed, et cetera.

And I knew I didn't have that expertise and we therefore needed to find somebody same thing with certain types of. Derivatives, for example, as we began to build those businesses. I was really keen to make sure that we had people that understood those and would be able to work effectively with the business and sometimes very complicated structures.

Yeah, so I don't think it was, it was more organic at that point and trying to think a little bit ahead of where we thought the business was going to go. I think, as the years went on, I did have some coaching, around how to continue to build out that kind of structure within the legal team.

[: 00:19:00

[00:19:01] Terry: by that time, we were pretty far down the road.

So it wasn't something that caused me to make any significant changes.

[: 00:19:09

[00:19:19] Terry: really helpful. And we had some really interesting discussions.

I mean, one of the things that we did was to figure out what my particular strengths were versus weaknesses, right? So, you know, if a strength was being able to, Analyze something, as opposed to approaching it emotionally. You kind of like to know that, right? If your default is always to pause and take a breath and review things, that's good.

If your instinct is to immediately rush in, sometimes that's not a bad thing, but it's good to know that that might not always yield the best result.we had a really interesting. Set of discussions around how I thought my at that point, I, I, I had become very passionately involved in question ism. And my view is that the power of the horse could do anything.

And I suggested that there could be leadership courses developed around how people manage. You know, to deal with horses that were difficult or just to understand how they would form that relationship. And my coach got very excited about that, although we never did.

[: 00:20:25

Yeah. Okay. So, so why don't we move on then to talk about this big sort of term that your career then did tell, tell us a bit about that.

[: 00:20:38

S. and I really was thinking at that point about stepping back. So I was in my, I mean, it seems impossibly young at this point, but I was in my late 50s and I thought, gosh, I've been doing this for a while traveling a lot. I'd really like to. Step out, and perhaps work out a part time role at Goldman Sachs.

nted as the CEO of the London: 2012

I mean, I am really passionate about sport. My colleague, Paul Dighton is an intensely competent, really good guy. I just thought, why would you not do this? Right? and. I was, appointed. I mean, there was some, I think a lot of people applied. Mm-Hmm. . and a lot of people applied, including people who weren't lawyers who said, I'm not a lawyer, but I could do this.

d the organizing committee in: 2006

It started with a small, really kind of entrepreneurial business in London so that you knew everybody and small that you covered a range of things. And this was going to be an ability to go back to that. So, rather than dealing with the budgets and the overall responsibilities, and all the personnel management of 180 people across Europe and Asia, this is going to be different.

you know, we were going to start small and then end up growing very quickly with a different end in sight. And that was fantastic, I would say in the 1st instance, I think this is the case when you start a new job for most people, you feel quite comfortable. Sometimes in the job that you've been in. I love Goldman Sachs.

I love the job. I felt I navigated as it were the firm. Well, however, when I went to the organizing committee, so much new stuff. I could feel an almost sort of physical, you know, buzzing every day. This is great. I need to learn all these new things. I need to understand who the new stakeholders are. I need to understand what we're supposed to do.

That was amazing, really energizing. Mm-Hmm. . And then the thing was that the organizing committee was entirely a creature of, of the uk Mm-Hmm. . I mean, I haven't been part of an international business. that was. Also, in some respects, very refreshing our day began as a UK day, and it entered as a UK day.

Sometimes it's a very long. Yeah, but you weren't waiting for New York to, you know, zoom in after lunch and then for Asia to be on the phone. 1st thing in the morning. I mean, you had a very different. Kind of, UK centric, which was also frankly appealing and at the same time recognizing that, you know, the games are an international, you know, an international concept and international set of principles.

So you had that wider scope, but it was within an organization that was in the United Kingdom.

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[00:24:41] Terry: Yeah, so I think the thing that I really always remember about London 2012 was the, tremendous amount of willingness. Of people to do everything they could to help you reach your legal goals, bearing in mind that this would be something that would never really generate much in the way of precedent.

Because you could always say, well, we only did that, you know, for for the games, there were a lot of areas where we could work with. Government, which was very helpful in. Defining how we were going to go forward, you know, in terms of how the organization was set up the relationship that we have with government with the British Olympic association, and then with quite specific things, how we were going to organize, for example, insurance across.

All of the aspects of the game and games and how we developed, for example, the right relationships with both insurance brokers and with pool re, which is the sort of structure. So, a lot of that stuff was really great. We would go into offices and it would, you know, you'd feel that you were 1 of the more exciting things that they were going to be talking about that day or always.

I think, prepared to assist, Without again, there was very little political tension. All of the political parties were United, which made it very, very much easier. I would say 1 of the big challenges we had, we, we wanted to make sure we had the right kind of rigorous structure for brand protection.

Something that the International Olympic Committee is absolutely focused on. We developed a unique brand at that point, never seen before, which was the logo, our famous logo, which was developed as a stylized to a 1 to, for the Olympic games. And it had the same shape. But with different infills for the Paralympic games, that was unprecedented.

We needed to put in place the right structures to protect the use of that. And we also needed to deal with people wishing to use the Olympic rings, but not necessarily having the rights to do so. And part of what I think we found challenging was some, some of our partners across the different local authorities in the United Kingdom got very energetic about this.

Particularly towards the start of the games, there was, there were things that we heard about that they were dealing with, which I would never have touched. I would have just let be. there was the butcher that had the rings in the shape of different colored sausages. I would not have touched that.

Just let him, let him be that. there were people that had, you know, holding up. Painted signs as the torch relay went through that they're very young or very old. Don't anybody under 7 years old or over 75 years old that had something temporary or edible. We were just don't do that. Right? But people were very, I think, keen to.

we got into the beginning of: 2012

All of the temporary what we call the overlay for the games. Everything was delayed Greenwich Park, which is where all the equestrian events was just a mud bowl and we ended up having to lay down wood chips. Across a fairly wide expanse of footpaths and also pass for the horses. If you went to Greenwich, there was definitely a kind of woody smell in the air, but that was done as a matter of kind of emergency because we couldn't deal with the ground.

Otherwise, and then, in addition to all the rain, we had a problem with the Hammersmith flyover was rendered unsafe. That was 1 of our major routes. So, we knew, you know, that was a big issue. Nobody was going to be able to come into the city that way. We had big problems at the immigration and, security control areas of people coming into Heathrow and Gatwick.

There were problems with the number of staff. There were long delays, people taking pictures of this on their iPhones. And then we had the G4S problem.

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[00:29:27] Terry: G4S was, you know, they had been appointed to run security and within, I think it was in, I want to say, March or so of 2012, we became aware that they had significant problems.

They couldn't find. All of the people that they supposedly had contracted to provide security, and in early in July, it became apparent that they just were not going to be able to fulfill the contract. So we declared them in breach. we had a very good contract, which provided us with a lot of remedies, and they ended up providing the funding.

For all of the plan B's that we had to put into effect, and the plan B's were to have the armed services as well as in some cities, municipal police provided and all of that was paid for out of the G4S. Kind of, damages clauses, it was very unnerving at that point was very unnerving at that point.

Because up until that point, it had been pretty good. I mean, a very supportive, and we. You know, just felt that this was something that we were going to need to get through, which we did. I think once the torch relay came close to London, there became a groundswell of popular support when the opening ceremony started, people loved the opening ceremony.

The 1st, few days of the games were very good. The rain stopped. People saw what was happening and came back into the city. I think if they had to leave. We put all of the Paralympic tickets back on sale at that point, and they were sold out and the Paralympics became possibly even more of a wonderful event in the Olympics.

Because the stadiums were full, people had a fantastic time. There was rain in between the Olympics and the Paralympics, but not at the Olympics or the Paralympics, which was great. And so I think, you know, we, we did get through it, but that was, that was a very challenging thing. I think I wrote something like 25 different letters.

To G4 saying, we're not going to pay you, you're in breach of every single day. During the course of the games, I mean, I think the other challenge that we had was the occupation of Saint Paul's, which we. We were concerned that there was also going to be an occupation or a set of activities like that, both at Greenwich Park and at some of the final training venues.

It ended up having to. Get immediate action to remove some people who were occupying 1 of the training venues, but we didn't.

[: 00:32:21

And I guess there was, there was still stuff to do after the games themselves. There was still work. How, how long did you stay on afterwards?

[: 00:32:40

Into voluntary administration by the end of May of 20. so, and then there was a process that took a number of years to work through. were there any insurance claims were there issues? everything was finally wound up. We gave quite a lot of money back to government, which had provided support in certain areas.

The whole thing was completely closed down. I think it took really at least 4 or 5 years to do that, but it was,

I don't think any other games has been able to do that to close out every contract to settle every claim and tie everything up. so we were really pleased to be able to do that.

[: 00:33:38

and then I was going to just talk to you a little bit about your current career, your sort of non executive career. and I know you're currently a director of a number of Goldman Sachs entities and also your love of, the British equestrian federation. I mean, how have you found, how do you find being in a non executive director versus being an executive?

How have you found that transition?

[: 00:34:01

I had the benefit of having. At least a year of separation from the low cog role to when I went on to the board of a company, which was. But I think there were 2 lessons. I suppose that I learned the 1st was really listen more than talk. 1 of 1 of my chairman at some point said to me after I'd been on a board for a year.

You know, Terry, you don't have to open your mouth, you know, in order for people to be aware that you've read the papers and that you understand the business. People will accept that. You do that. You know, you need to listen a bit more. It isn't necessary to to, you know, to to actually. Comment on every single thing, that's not really your job.

If you see what I'm saying, and I think that was really good. And the 2nd thing I think was to just make sure that you did have the right kind of opportunities to to make sure that you did understand the business, you know, that you read the materials. If there were questions in the materials. You didn't wait till the board meeting necessarily to ask them.

I think all of the boards that I've sat on, the ones that have, you know, I think, been the most effective have been where the organization has been willing to make sure that. If necessary, we can. Members of the management team can explain or by the necessary perspective, which I find really, really helpful.

It's important not to abuse that because they've got a job. But if you make it clear that you want to be able to make sure that you've understood what it is, if, you know, if the organization should be able to offer the opportunity to give you a bit more education, And that's really, really valuable.

[: 00:36:16

Do you have any advice for how to prepare yourself?

[: 00:36:37

Try, I did have some understanding of. Construction contracts, because that was part of what my team did at low cost. But generally speaking, the construction industry wasn't something that I was an expert in. And so I think part of it is just deciding what appeals to you. What's attractive and where you think you can lend value.

I think it's really, really important to. If you go through the appointment process, the interview process to use that as an opportunity for them to get to know you, obviously, but for you to get to know the board and the senior management as best you can, because the board actually has to function

[: 00:37:39

[00:37:40] Terry: a group that works together.

Well. You don't have to be, you know, all best friends or anything, but you do have to be absolutely willing and frankly, to enjoy spending time together and working on challenges and understanding how, you know, you're lending value. So, that personal element is really important. I think having. I mean, I, everybody thinks about this in a somewhat different way, but I've been lucky, I think as well to have had.

Relationships with a couple of different recruitment firms, so that when they contact me that it's the sort of thing that I think is likely to be a good fit. And if. You have that kind of relationship, it's really helpful. The final point I would make is that the roles that I've. Had as non executive have in a couple of instances.

Goldman Sachs and Ross say, in particular, come from existing relationships that I had to not from the recruitment firm as such. And this is such an important lesson as you go through your career, you know, you've got so many opportunities to build relationships with people, even if they're on the other side.

Of the case, or on the other side of the table and the side of the deal. Every opportunity like that is. The basis for somebody thinking, you know, I really enjoyed, dealing with that person. I didn't like that. They 1 or whatever. If that's what it is, I like the way that they handled themselves. And I, that might then trigger a memory.

If there's an opportunity or a position at their organization at some point.

[: 00:39:26

but I went to an amazing networking event last night with, a lot of women who work in the city and, you know, and all of them were there wanting to help one another and support one another. But it was, you know, it was very, inspiring. And it was amazing how many people afterwards will come up with ideas to find people roles or help them with a new job or help them recruit someone.

so yeah, making sure you do make the effort to go to those things. Cause usually when you're there, they're really energizing. It's just, when you think about going at the end of the day, sometimes you're not so energized about the thought, but just go get there. And then, you know, you'll meet amazing people.

Focus on that broadening of network, I think is, is really important. Ask people's advice. Have your own little personal boards of board of directors, can be really useful. So I'm now going to ask you for like your, what, what would your three pieces of advice be looking back? Oh, I want to ask you writing, has writing ever come up again?

Have you ever wanted to go back and sort of scratch that itch and do some writing? It's a really good question.

[: 00:40:38

You know, God forbid by I don't, but, you know, by iPhone or whatever. I mean, you're, you're sending things quite quickly because people want to know something and. I've never felt that that was. A big obstacle, sometimes. People find it really difficult, so I, I, I haven't written the great American novel and I don't think I'm going to or great.

I don't think I'm going to do that now. But, you know, I, I think there's opportunities to, to feel very, very glad that I was able to get the experience of writing under deadline

[: 00:41:27

[00:41:28] Terry: understanding the sources. My husband, by the way, thinks that since I went to law school, my writing style has completely deteriorated.

I now need to tick and tie everything before I say it, but I disagree.

[: 00:41:43

[00:41:57] Terry: I think 1 of the things that somebody told me early on, which has really stuck with me is the value of the early.

No, can rarely be overestimated. So, what I mean by that is, if you, if you're, and this is often the case with the lawyer, and I think maybe even very typical of an in house lawyer. Somebody comes up with a great idea. They come to you. It's never going to work. And if you say to people, I'm really sorry, this is not going to work.

If you say that early on, it saves a lot of trouble. If you temporize, well, you know, I'm going to have to think about this, or I'll come back to you, or that's a great idea. But maybe we just need, you'll just go down a road where it will become harder and harder to extricate yourself. So the value of the early note can rarely be overestimated.

I sometimes say that to myself. And I think. That's something that's hard for people to do when they're young. Yes. Yes. So that's point 1. 2. I think 1 of the things that lawyers get a kind of, you know, difficult reputation for is that sometimes they seem happy to say, no, no, no, you can't do that. It's a little bit.

The computer says no. And I found as well, over the years, it's saying to people, look, I'm really sorry. Value the early no, I'm really sorry. It's got to be. No, I'm sorry because I know this is your pet project or whatever. However, let's sit down and think about if there's another way to do this. Okay. Okay.

We're in no land at this point, but we might be able to get into yes land. If you need an answer today, it's no, if you can give me more time and give me more information, it might be a yes. I don't enjoy saying

[: 00:43:44

[00:43:45] Terry: saying, and I think that's sometimes been very helpful and it builds sort of relationship with the person that you're working with.

And then I think the final point, I, I find this really, really difficult to do myself. But when you've done something, well, when you've done, you've had a difficult case that you've managed to work through. You've had a difficult set of problems. You've had a massive deal that you've worked with people and got it done.

Try if you can to enjoy it a little bit, because most of the time you're beating yourself up for missing something or getting something a bit wrong. But if you can. Enjoy it and think, you know, I really did that piece of it. Well, I did something. Well, I'm going to learn from that and, you know, build on that.

I think that gives you additional confidence for going forward and, you know, I think those are things that you learn as you go along. I would say, by the way, that the, the other thing, if you've made a mistake immediate, this is the 4th thing. I suppose immediately try to fess up. I made a mistake. It's my problem.

I'm going to try and fix it. But you need to know this right away. Don't delay. Yeah, I don't think this is the advice I said about don't self medicate. It will just get worse and worse and worse. And that's a really hard thing to be able to say that. But it's, it's worked out in a couple of cases where that's happened.

And I was in both cases quite young as a lawyer with person said, thank you so much for telling me that. Right, right forward. Right. And that was very good. That was a very good response. And I think with, with my teams, that was the sort of thing that I wanted to say to them as well. Thank you for telling me, let's just work through this.

[: 00:45:42

And it's interesting that you find, so even you find that hard, like look, looking back at something and going, you know what, I did that really well. Yeah, because you always

[: 00:46:08

And in order to do that, you need to say, yes, I recognize that I did that piece of it. Well, maybe I didn't the other piece of it all that well, but that part of it I did well, and I can apply that going forward.

[: 00:46:34

yeah, and, and it's been really, really lovely to spend time with you. So thank you.

[: 00:46:45

[00:46:48] Erica: Fantastic.