Ep#14 Are Men and Women Different? Enhancing Understanding to Build Inclusivity - Part 2

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So, I've been coaching Jo for a while now. she is a director at Willow Bridge Capital. she's been with the firm for eight years now, four years as a director. she was really hoping to be promoted to managing director last year, but it just didn't happen. And so we're now working together to see if I can support her in getting her promotion this year.

So just by way of background, Joe has two small children and a husband who also has a busy job. he works as a financial journalist and they currently juggle childcare together. And obviously the promotion would be really helpful for Joe in terms of, increased compensation. so let's go through some of the things that have come out in our coaching.

so first of all, Jo wasn't really sure that she wanted to go for promotion last year. She was concerned that she ticked about 80% of the competencies for promotion, for the expanded role, that she'd been made aware of by hr, but she was concerned that she really wasn't hitting it out of the park on every single one of them.

She was also worried about a glitch that had occurred on a big client account where her team hadn't been on top of what needed to be done. Client wasn't happy. And so she felt this was another factor that meant it just wasn't the right time to go for promotion. and then I, I talked to her about the extent to which she'd been discussing promotion with her boss and about, was she ready?

Should she go for it? And it seems like they hadn't really been talking about it. In fact, she didn't have any regular personal development catch ups. So only one to ones that were purely based around business.so she did go for promotion, but she only put her hat in the ring quite late on. And that was when she saw a colleague in a different team going for promotion.

And she was like, well, look. I know I'm better than him. I know I do a much better job. The clients are much happier. If he's doing it, I ought to put my hat in the ring. And so she told her boss that she wanted to go, for the promotion and he was brilliant. He was very supportive. He helped her with her business case and even helped her with rehearsals for the presentation she was going to give.

Although, she did mention one thing, which was that he nearly put her off by giving her what I think he thought was a pep talk, about how hard it was going to be, she'd have to be really committed, work as hard as she possibly could, really go for it, knock the competition out of the water, and this whole approach, and advice just made her feel really uncomfortable, particularly in terms of competing with others and, and potentially even succeeding at the expense of someone else.

so, she was then told she hadn't made it. and we talked a bit about what feedback did she get. And one of the issues seems to be is that the feedback was very, very vague. And really along the lines of she just needed more time. More people see, needed to see her acting like an MD. And then she was really cross with herself because she got upset in the meeting and she cried, even though she was determined not to cry before she went in, and it was clear that made her boss, really uncomfortable.

I did spend some time asking her if she really did want the promotion to MD and why did she want it? And also, did she really think she was good enough? so it is clear that she does really want it. and she's actually pretty confident about her achievements and her potential going forward. Although she did mention there's a bit of a lack of female role models in the business.

And the ones that she could see, she couldn't really identified with. They seem to devote every single waking hour. To the business. And that did make her question about whether would she really be able to succeed at the highest levels in the organization.and then lastly, I did ask her, did she bring up the issue of compensation because clearly she didn't get the promotion.

An obvious thing to do because the firm would know she was disappointed, is to say, okay, I haven't got the promotion this year, but can I expect an increase in my bonus? And she admitted that she hadn't brought this up and actually that she felt really. uncomfortable talking about money, although she feels like she ought to be able to do this.

And she, in fact, she should have made it clear that she was expecting an increase in bonus.so I asked her because of this vague feedback, I asked Joe if it, if she thought it would be okay if I did a feedback session with her boss, Rob, something we quite often do in coaching. To see if I could really eek out, what, what was it that held her back?

so the great thing is that Rob does seem to really value Jo. She's brilliant at her job, fantastic with clients, gets great feedback. He mentioned she does a lot of other things supporting the business more generally. So, She mentors new recruits. She helps recruit people going to campus recruitment events.

So very valued member of the team. He said he was very aware of the demands of her young family. So he does whatever he can to make sure she doesn't get put on projects that involve a lot of travel or late nights. And then he said he was really surprised when Jo mentioned that she was interested in promotion because she'd never ever before said anything about it.

So he just assumed that it wasn't something she was interested in and she was just happy where she was in terms of her career. And then we got onto the feedback and it was quite difficult to get out of Rob exactly what he meant. He said she needed more gravitas, demonstrate that she's really operating at the MD level.

and I tried to push him on what to say. And it seemed to come down to confidence and also he compared it to this other colleague in the team who was successful and mentioned by how it was just so clear. He was absolutely desperate for promotion and he just really went for it. He did everything he possibly could strategically to get there and made it very clear.

That was his main goal for that year, and he wanted to see some more of that from Joe, and in particular increasing her visibility and speaking up more at meetings. So sometimes he's frustrated that she knows her stuff, but she just doesn't talk in the meetings.and in terms of other things, I guess that the other thing he mentioned is sometimes she can come across as a bit negative.

So often questioning when they're trying to, decide on a plan, you know, coming up with risks and questioning, is it the right thing to do? And then once they have got something in place, suggesting improvements when, as far as Rob's concerned, it's, you know, perfectly fine as it is. And that feels to him a bit negative.

so I thought it'd be really interesting to ask Rob about his experiences of going for promotion and how, you know, He approached it. and the interesting thing is that first of all, he knew he didn't tick all the boxes. but he was very clear that that wasn't going to hold him back. He just knew he had to be incredibly strategic and focused in his approach.

So he made sure that he only took on work. That was going to be visible and got him to interact with the right people. He'd say no to other things that he thought weren't going to be good for him. And then he spent a lot of time making sure he formed the right relationships. So with people senior in the firm, but also in particular with people who'd be involved in the.

Decision making. And then one thing Rob did promise to do is that he would, help Joe with her personal development. So he'd make sure they did have those meetings on a regular basis. And he'd also try and coach her in terms of speaking up and being more visible in the organization. And, and I'll come back to that in a minute.

'cause one of the things he agreed to do was take her to a very senior level meeting. So I'll tell you in a bit about how. That meeting played out, but let's have a look at some of the things that were going on there in terms of both Rob and Joe's behavior and their ways of thinking.

So the first big thing is that you can see Joe feeling like she really has to satisfy every single requirement. Very, very common in women. study that's been done that shows that men feel that they need to satisfy about 60 percent of the requirements before they apply for a role, whereas women will feel they need to satisfy as a minimum 100, if not 110 percent.

And women will tend to discount their abilities, when they're thinking, are they qualified enough to do this? And search terms say that, Women are way less assertive about their qualifications than men. So it's possible that men tend to overestimate their abilities. And there was a nice anecdote from a professor who said he thought the men were crazy in terms of how well they thought they were going to do in exams.

But the women are the opposite. They really tend to undervalue, how well they think they're going to do. And then sometimes women expressing this sort of humility or. insecurity around their performance in front of men means that men will feel that they are weak and possibly they aren't as capable, as they actually are in reality.

a man would behave differently. So, you can see there the difference and understanding that when a woman says this, you know, I really don't think I, I, I satisfy everything. A man shouldn't interpret it the way he would if it was a man speaking. So, I think that's one of the really big points. and then one of the, a couple of, anecdotes that I really like that sort of sung this up, first of all, again, the same professor,noticing that when the course got to a really hard point, so in the second half of the course, the men would say to one another, wow, this, this is a tough course.

It's really got tough. The women would say, oh, I'm not sure if I'm good enough. I think it's now showing that I wasn't good enough to do this course in the first place. And again, an anecdote with, team coaches. So if they're coaching a group of men and they give them a talk because they're not performing as well as they should be, and they're saying, right, You're not good enough.

You haven't been focusing on your nutrition. You haven't been training enough. A man sitting there will think, yeah, quite right. I'm glad you're telling them all that they're really not doing what they should do. Whereas a woman will assume the coach is talking to them specifically. So she'll take the criticism internally, whereas the men will tend to externalize it.

And then the nicest story, which I think is easy to remember is that if you're pulling on a pair of trousers, you notice they're a bit too tight. the woman will say, Oh no, I think I've put on weight. What will the men say? They'll say, Oh, these trousers have clearly shrunk in the wash. So just think about that in terms of men and women interacting.

They have a very different approach in terms of valuing.and then you can see with Joe with this thing that went wrong with her clients and her team, women will always feel they could do better and they will tend to ruminate when they've made a mistake. Whereas a man will tend to move on. So again, recognizing that a woman ruminating on a mistake isn't a sign of weakness, but can you do something to help her move on?

And women, move on. Say, is this serving me to think about this more? If it's not, then just leave it alone and move on.

And then we've got the issue of women not asking. So, Joe didn't ask. She didn't make it absolutely clear that she wanted a promotion. I mean, you could say, there was a nice quote, in the Financial Times from, from an associate working in a law firm who said, you know, I've been working here for 18 years.

I've worked like a dog. What on earth gave you the impression that I didn't want the promotion? But sometimes it's not clear to people. And maybe a man would be much more direct and clear about it. So women need to ask, and this really does come up in the area of compensation. Women tend to not ask for more money.

They tend to not make it clear what they want to be paid. Some personality types are exactly the same, so this isn't just women, it's also people, who don't like asking for things, often people who also don't like making themselves visible. I've got another video on negotiating your compensation, have a listen to that, to have a, have a, a listen to what's the impact of potentially not asking, but also some ways about how to get yourself comfortable.

With making the ask, but this is probably one of the biggest lessons. Women, please ask for that promotion. You are good enough for it. And what's the worst that can happen? You can ask, which makes it signals that you're really clear that you want it. And then, you know, you've had some nice practice at going for a promotion that you don't get.

So just go for it. Then, obviously, Rob made an assumption that Jo didn't want to have a promotion, so again, making it, really thinking about, are you making assumptions? Should you be asking how the woman or the other person that you're dealing with feels? Don't make assumptions, and that applies to both men and women.

And Rob was also doing the same thing, indulging in a little bit of benevolent sexism. By making sure that Joe didn't get put on hard assignments that would mean late nights or travel, but you can see these might have been really fantastic assignments for Joe in terms of increasing her visibility, and her potential for promotion.

And then I guess on visibility, so again, Joe feeling really uncomfortable, not wanting to be the self promoting type, not wanting to succeed, at the expense of others. and there's a nice concept that, that Sheryl Sandberg talks about in her book, Lean In, and this is Tiara Syndrome. So this is a syndrome whereby you're working day and night in your office, head down, doing an incredible job, producing amazing work, and at the end of the week, your boss comes in with a really beautiful, And nestled on it is an amazing, sparkly tiara.

And your boss says to you, I want to give you this tiara as a symbol of all the amazing work that you've done this week. I want you to put this on and walk around the office so everyone can see. How much I value and how fantastic you are. Now, I don't know about you, but I've never been given a tiara in my life and I've never seen anyone else wearing one.

So let's assume that's not going to happen. And what you need to do is to help your boss by making sure he's aware of all the amazing work that you're doing. That you're doing and maybe find ways to reframe this to make you more comfortable. So you are increasing your visibility, to help your team, to help your family, but find ways to get more comfortable because you're helping your boss find ways to make yourself more comfortable.

With getting out there and, showcasing why you are fantastic. And the more you do that, the more that will increase your confidence and the easier it will become, and it's not black and white, it's not, you don't have to be a hideous self promoter or someone who doesn't say anything about how great they are, you are.

There is a middle ground. So go. For that middle ground and get comfortable with it.there was something I mentioned about role models. Clearly, it is harder if you're in a minority and you can't see someone who looks like you and behaves like you further up an organization. So, we all need to think about showcasing But also, I think it's important that we get to know the role models and get to know them personally, and the organizations find ways to allow people to get to know them because often, particularly things like senior women in an organization can look really, really impressive.

And like they do dedicate 100 percent of their time. To their job. But if you look behind the facade, you may find something very different. And I know, you know, people have often said, oh Eric, you're really impressive. You know, how do you do all this? If you saw what was going on behind the scenes, you'd see me not doing very well at a lot of things.

But we need to allow people to see the humanity behind that facade. So organizations think about how do we allow people to see the person behind the role model?I was going to mention also this thing about where Rob really tried to G Joe up. So like trying to motivate her by telling her how hard it was going to be, how she'd have to really go for it.

That's based on a real anecdote that was told to me. Someone rang me up and said, I'm taking myself out of the promotion process for MD because her boss had just done exactly that to her. So for a man, men are happy to compete is something they're used to doing. It motivates them. It gives them energy.

But for a woman, it can have completely the opposite effect. It can really deflate her and make herself want to take herself out of the game completely. And that would apply to different personality types as well, not just men and women. So again, be careful about how you are motivating people and understand that they may have they may need something different in terms of motivating them to go forward.

They may need more support and empathy than something that's really going to tell them to go ahead and compete.and that goes back to playground games and women liking fairness, so you can see where all that comes from. And then I think the last thing, I was going to mention was, about crying.

So, obviously this is something that comes a lot. It comes up a lot with women, generally the advice is don't cry in the workplace because people will judge you potentially if you cry or they'll definitely take a story away with them about the fact that you've been crying. So, much as I would like us to be more comfortable with people crying in the office, generally the advice is, Don't do it.

But I think it'd be useful to understand exactly what's going on. So when a woman is crying, she will experience, blood flow to the hippocampus under even quite moderate stress and become more emotional. So about eight times more blood flow will be going into her, into the emotional centers of her brain than would be for a man who's crying.

who is experiencing the same degree of stress. So if you think about a man observing that, he's looking at the person crying and he's saying, okay, in order for me to cry, I'd have to be eight times more stressed than you actually are. And so he's thinking you're about to implode. You're about to fall over with this level of stress.

Help, help, help. I can't deal with this. This is, this is, you know, this is a disaster on my hands. But actually for a woman when she's crying, It's not that big a deal. And a woman can be totally rational whilst crying. So men don't be so freaked out by it. Just accept she's crying. It's just a reaction. It's a reaction, a bit like anger.

You can offer to let her have some time to, compose herself, but that may not even be necessary. Just acknowledge it, offer a tissue. And then say, would you like to carry on talking? We can carry on talking. So give her some space if she needs it, but otherwise carry on talking and don't be too freaked out by it.

So what else before I move on to the meeting that Rob takes Joe to? So, So I guess if you think about Rob's approach to his promotion, you can see how focused he was. So he made it really clear. It was what he wanted. and was very strategic about the type of work that he took on and also about forming relationships with the right people.

So again, women and or other personality types who are less traditionally extrovert will tend to spend time doing the work and doing the work really well and believing that that will get recognized. whereas sometimes what you need to do is be more strategic and think about, is this the right job for me to say yes to?

What can I do to form relationships? Sometimes being 100 percent accurate and being the real expert isn't the way, for success in the organizations we operate in. So just think about, am I spending the right amount of time developing relationships? That's not just with senior people, also with other people within the firm, those relationships are incredibly important in terms of.

So, allowing you to get things done, but just think, can I be a little bit more strategic about how I'm spending my time and what do I agree to take on? And then there's a little bit of feedback about Joe being negative in terms of asking questions and wanting to continuously improve things. So again, this goes to, women sort of scanning the horizon for risk.

Always looking what can they do to protect everyone in the village. So women will tend to ask questions. Sometimes they'll be asking questions as a way to actually show inclusion. So women may be asking questions. They're not really looking for answers. They're just giving people an opportunity to speak.

But again, a man may interpret that as weakness or uncertainty or may just find it frustrating because he's on his linear path from A to B. He doesn't want any interruptions to that. And then women will also tend to have a desire to continuously improve. So always looking for something. Can it be done better?

Always looking in themselves. Can I do better? And always looking around them. Can it be done better? And I know that's absolutely true because. I see it in my husband and myself at home. I'm always noticing if there's a scratch or something that's slightly broken. And I tell him about it. He's like, Oh, I don't think that matters.

Do I really have to deal with it? because he's like, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So again, being aware of that and not. I'm not interpreting that as negative, but embracing it as something that women can really bring to the table. Because maybe sometimes asking those additional questions might be really useful.

And sometimes it's really useful to see, can something be improved? On the other side of the equation, women think about, be aware of your tendency to want to ask questions before you get to reach a conclusion. And also this desire to continuously improve. Does it really need to be perfect? Thanks. Can you let it go?

So let's move on now to feedback from the meeting that Rob took Joe to. So clearly great that he took her to this meeting and it was very senior. So the CEO was there, CFO, COO, about 20 people in all. and Joe mentioned that when she first went in, she tried to sit on one of the chairs around the edges.

of the room, not of the big table and Rob pulled her and said, no, no, come and sit next to me. And next to Rob was right next to the CEO for Joe. So that was great because she had a chat with him at the end of the meeting. And he said, come and see me in a couple of weeks and tell me how the project's progressing.

So already you can see she's making those relationship contacts. And increasing her visibility. So if nothing else, the meeting was fantastic for that. she did mention that she felt slightly uncomfortable when she sat down because Rob turned to her and said, Oh, I really love your dress. You look very nice today.

And she was just felt slightly uncomfortable. Yeah, not a big deal, but would have rather, you know, Rob focused on something else rather than draw attention to what she was wearing. And I guess potentially othering her, you know, making it clear, you know, he probably wouldn't have said that to a man he'd brought along to the meeting.

And then her feedback on the meeting itself was really interesting. So it was a mixed gender group. There were two very senior women there. And the meeting generally was much more disorganized than she thought it would be. So lots of people talking across one another, lots of people interrupting. And apparently the men did speak a lot more than the women.

And she noticed in particular, at one point, the head of HR, who was a woman, made a point. No one picked up on it. And then five minutes later, a man Made exactly the same suggestion and everyone picked up on it suddenly as a brilliant idea. And she was like, what? What was that? that was very strange. Why didn't they hear the head of HR when she spoke?

and then the last thing we talked about was, did she manage to get her points across? So this was really important. She knew her stuff. Could she speak up in the meeting? And she did admit that she found it really difficult. Often things were on the tip of her tongue and she wanted to say them. but she just felt really uncomfortable and would.

Hold herself back. but luckily towards the end of the session, Rob turned to her and asked her to speak specifically about any other points she wanted to make. And then she did get everything out and it went down really well. So that was great. That Rob did that for her. So again, let's talk about some of the things that might have been going on in that session.

So first of all, this thing about it being disorganized and interrupting, so interrupting is something that generally men are much more comfortable with than women. And again, it might go back to these playground games where men are sort of tossing balls between one another, they're, they're trying to intercept, whereas the girls are playing together in a collaborative sort of.

Rules based game, certainly not interrupting one another. And again, for a woman, interruption shows a lack of inclusion. So you want to allow people to talk, to form this relationship that is so important for women. So often, women will see men interrupting and interpret it as a sign of rudeness or lack of care.

Whereas for a man, it will be completely second nature. And I know from my own experience, sometimes at work I'd get home at the end of the day. you know, I'd be in back to back meetings and I'd get home and I'd sort of feel a bit bleh. And I'd be like, what is that? What is that? And one of the things I, I put it down to eventually is that I was continually having to interrupt people because there was never enough time to let people speak.

And so I had to interrupt them and I just didn't feel good about it. It wasn't something that I wanted to do. I just and then people, you know, about the fact that the men were talking more, there's been some nice research done about do men talk more? Because traditionally, men would say women talk more, but in the workplace, what you tend to find is men taking up more space.

and there was a Canadian mayor who, When she was in city council meetings actually used to knit and she'd change colors whenever a man spoke versus a woman. So green for women, red for men. You can understand what color the, imagine what color the scarf was. So very, very red. there was also a test carried out, an experiment carried out, where a group of both men and women were asked to describe three pictures.

On average, the women took around three minutes, 17 seconds to describe the three pictures, whereas the men took on average about 17 minutes. And that's not even, the complete story because three of the men actually ran out of time at 30 minutes when they were still going. So potentially in the workplace, men do man spread, take up more space.

So if you're a man, maybe think a little bit. about how much space you're taking up in the room and in the conversation. If you're a woman, maybe you're going to have to get a little bit more, comfortable with interrupting people. But also everyone in the room can make an effort to make sure they ask people who haven't spoken, do they have a view.

and then this point about commenting on a woman's dress. So I know this is a bit of a, nightmare for men in terms of the line they have to walk. Should they open the door for women? Should they not? This again was a real anecdote, that someone told to me and we actually relayed this to her male boss.

He was absolutely mortified when he got this feedback that it made. And it was because of the nature of the meeting, so the meeting was very senior, and what she didn't want, she recognized her boss was trying to say something nice to her and put her at ease, but she just didn't want attention brought to what she was wearing.

She didn't want to be made to feel female in that context, to be made to feel different to everyone else. and you might well have heard Hillary Clinton talking. About how long she had to spend during her campaign on hair and makeup, you'll have a scene probably that at some point she decided she wasn't going to have her hair and makeup done and she got.

horrendous feedback. She was crucified in the press, but she added up the amount of time that it took to do her hair and makeup during the campaign, and it was 600 hours. So that's 25 days that she spent focused on her appearance. and I really like, there's a quote from Caitlin Moran that says that every morning when a woman gets up, she has to go through this analysis of What's she going to wear?

So she's running through potential outfits through a vector of factors before she makes a decision. Will these clothes make me look professional? Will these clothes make me look thin? Will they make me look nice? Will they make me look unique and with it? And more importantly, will they keep me safe? So just something that every woman is having to deal with that perhaps is less obvious to men.

And the other thing that often happens in big meetings that are very male dominated is there's quite a lot of physicality between the men. So they'll slap one another on the arm, they'll massage one another's shoulders. And again, just being, it's a form of communication and bonding for men, but obviously not something that they're going to be doing with a woman, or at least I hope they won't be doing with a woman in the room.

So again, if you're a man, just being aware that if you're doing that. You're going to make a woman feel somewhat left out if that's the way you're physically communicating with other men in the room.

And then this point about not hearing women. So again and again and again, I hear stories about this. In fact, it happened the other day with my husband. I suggested we might do something. And he didn't react. And then five minutes later, he suggested exactly the same thing to me and then seemed shocked when I said, are you joking?

Like I literally just said that he seriously didn't hear me consciously, but he clearly did hear me subconsciously. And so then he came out with the idea and, and absolutely a hundred percent believed it was his idea and hadn't been prompted by me. And there has been some research into why that is. And, and it may be because The pitch of women's voices and the way our voices, operate is different and it's harder for men to interpret them.

So you will have, might have heard about Margaret Thatcher being told to lower, the pitch of her voice if she started talking very deeply. you know, I don't like to give that advice to women, but I probably would do again being pragmatic. So if you really need to get your point across, maybe just lower the pitch slightly, talk slowly.

Create gaps, catch people's eyes. And one of the reasons that it may be harder for men to process what women are saying is because we tend to use more sounds than men. And we tend to talk in a more melodic way. And what research has shown is perhaps. Men are using the bit of their brains that they would use for listening to music, rather than listening to speech, to interpret what women are saying.

So, it possibly could be that, but, you know, do what you can to make sure you are heard. And you, you can physically put your hand up, use something physical to say, pay attention to me. and there was a lovely piece of advice I was given on a course once around what to do if you do need to interrupt someone who's speaking.

so this is the most extreme. So you could just hold your hand up. but what they said is have a go at doing a clap. So literally clap. It doesn't have to be really loud. It doesn't have to be right in front of the person's face, but maybe just clap your hands together and then they'll stop. And I know it sounds really scary, but try it because it's not as noticeable when you do it in a conversation.

So, that is one piece of advice that you could possibly try.

And then the last thing I would say, about, that session with Jo is her wanting to speak, but holding herself back. She's worrying that what she was going to say was stupid. So, I'd encourage everyone in meetings, men or women, If you have that feeling like you really want to say something, but you're thinking, am I missing the point?

Or is this going to be perceived as stupid? Just try it. Take a jump off the ledge. Try it. Take a risk. See what happens. You will have been in meetings where people say stupid things or repeat things or talk unnecessarily. People forget. People are much more focused on themselves and what they're going to say next, rather than what the other person is thinking.

We could do with some more listening, or active listening going on in some of our meetings. But don't worry, they're not going to hold it against you forever. They're not going to judge you forever. Just, if you get that feeling, I would say, just speak, take a risk, and then exercise some self compassion, with whatever happens next.

And then the last thing that I want to mention, that I haven't mentioned before, this would normally come up when we act out, an appraisal situation with Rob and Jo, and Rob will be tossing an apple, and Jo will be pretty horrified that he's tossing an apple instead of paying attention to her, but one of the things that can really help a man stay focused is some form of small, regular physical activity, and what that does is help convert adrenaline.

into dopamine which will actually calm the brain. So if you see a man tapping a pen, tapping his foot, hopefully not tossing an apple, but tossing an apple, don't interpret it as he's not focused on you. He's actually doing that activity to try and increase his focus. Same thing if he's looking away. He might well look away to increase his focus.

For women, they'll increase focus on someone by making eye contact. For a man, it's the opposite. So just be aware of that and don't. misinterpreted.

So, that brings us to our end of our time with Joe and Rob. I hope you found it interesting. I hope you take some things forward that you can use in your own life at work. and for anyone who is watching the YouTube video, I'm just going to leave you with a slide. I'll describe it briefly, but really what this slide is trying to demonstrate is We are all different and we really see things and interpret things differently.

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So on this slide, what you'll see is you'll probably remember this famous, gold and white dress, or some people would see it as blue and black. So again, people looking at the same object, seeing something completely different. There's then a photo, then a drawing of, what I see initially as a young woman with a hat, that's got a.

It's a feather in its plume in the hat, but other people might see it as an old woman with a large nose and a sort of hood over her head. And the last one you'll either see as an urn or as two faces facing one another. So pop onto YouTube, have a look at the slides, see what you see, and just remember we are all different and what's amazing is we are all different and we need to embrace that difference.

Thank you.