Ep#12 Navigating a Career in Government Legal with Mel Nebhrajani

[: 00:00:00

Today I am really excited to be joined by Mel Nebhrajani, who is Director General

of Litigation with Justice and Security in the Government Legal Department, working

for our

Government.

Government Legal is actually an organization that is very

close to my heart, as I was privileged enough to sit on their Board for five years,

and it's a really amazing organisation

doing fascinating work.

And for any lawyer listening who doesn't already work there, keep listening because there may be a whole new avenue to your career that you hadn't

ever thought of before

that could open up to you as an idea

once you've listened to this podcast.

so as well as being really excited about being able

to do a bit of a sales pitch for Government League or more of which

later, I'm really delighted

to have Mel join me.

If I were a senior

politician in government, dealing with all the pressures that we know that brings, Mel is absolutely the person that I'd want to have by my side. Not just because of

the wise

and experienced counsel that she brings, but also, as you will discover, because of her wonderfully supportive, considered and calm approach to the knottiest of problems,

even when delivering messages that

perhaps some ministers are not always keen to hear.

So she's absolutely the person

I'd want there

supporting me. And it's a delight to welcome you to this podcast, Mel.

[: 00:01:21

Erica, what a great

introduction. Thank you so much.

[: 00:01:25

people listening should listen to

your manner about how you, how you

respond to things. There's something very special

about the way Yeah, about your whole manner, your whole, yeah, your whole

ambiance that you bring. So,

so can I just ask you, maybe you could tell us a bit about yourself, your background,

what brought you into the law, how

you ended up at Government

legal.

yeah, it'd be a

great, great to hear a bit of your background.

[: 00:01:47

So I had quite a

meandering journey, shall we say, to the law. and I'd recommend that, we may go into that in a little more, detail at some point about what I learned from having that journey.

So I didn't come to law from

reading law at university or indeed straight to law from the university.

I read English.

And I often say to people, if you want to be a lawyer, read

something other than law

first. And if you don't want to be a lawyer, a law degree is a great degree to have as a foundation for business or whatever else you want to do. So having read

English, I decided to go into publishing for a couple of years.

And I ought to

say that I do come from quite a long line

of lawyers on my mother's side of the family. So, I have a long line of, barristers in particular who trained over

here, but practiced in India. But

I think I probably

did that good thing that all teenagers should do, which was

to really

set my face against

doing anything that my family

members had done.

So I absolutely

graduated with my English degree, fully intending to do anything but law. And

I went

into publishing and

it happened to

be that I graduated into a recession and the first job I got was in

legal.

[: 00:03:01

[00:03:02] Mel: So I think the universe had a plan

for me, Erica,

I would

[: 00:03:05

[00:03:07] Mel: found myself being much,

much more interested in the law than in the business of publishing.

And I had a choice a couple of years after being in

that. publishing world for, for a while, to think, do I go down the generalist publishing routes, or do I perhaps scratch that itch that had always been in my background?

So I decided

to scratch the itch and train as a

lawyer,

and I intended fully to be a barrister.

And in

fact that is

what I did. So I worked in chambers as a chancellery barrister for about four years. It wasn't a particularly happy prospect. again, Erica, I can say a little bit more about that. I really felt that my values didn't quite fit, that it wasn't work that I really wanted to do.

And I found myself really drawn to,

the government legal profession because of that public service.

And I have to say from the

minute, my first foot

in the door, I found myself

really

to come home. It felt like coming home. I can put it as clearly as that.

[: 00:04:10

And obviously it's quite a big step if you'd started work, started earning, I

presume, to then decide to go back and retrain.

What was that like as a

[: 00:04:19

[00:04:21] Mel: Gosh, it was a hard decision, I have to say,

because even two years

out of education slightly makes you feel a little bit de skilled about whether you're able to sit in

a classroom

again and learn and do exams. But you know what? I really felt

that publishing wasn't for me,

that I had to

take that leap of faith.

There is that

sense in sometimes, you know,

what can go wrong if you just

take that step. You have to have faith in yourself, I

[: 00:04:51

[00:04:53] Mel: Actually, you'll make anything that you do, any step you take, you will make succeed for yourself if you've got sufficient determination.

So although it was

quite a risk

and it felt a bit

scary,

I probably used that

quite a lot in my career to give myself confidence that I can take that less expected step and that it

will work out really well.

[: 00:05:16

can we just stop there? Because I do

think, you know, I've been reading up a

lot about the difference between men and women and self confidence comes into

that a lot.

And nearly all of the literature and research on self confidence talks about failure and action, like you have to take

action to build confidence.

You have to have enough self

esteem to think.

That you have the

capability to deal with something difficult

if it comes up, but you've got to, you've got to fail. The more you fail,

the more you'll succeed. And there's a

great Nike advert with Michael Jordan talking about how often he failed,

you know, obviously to be incredibly successful,

but it is really interesting that the fact that you did that early on in your career and you thought, well,

what's the worst that can happen.

So,

yeah, tell me a bit about how that's played out. Has that, have you gone back to that

thought, you

know, again, and thought, well, actually, I'm going

to do something here that is a bit out of my comfort zone, but

I know I did that thing earlier in my career, so, you know, why not

[: 00:06:10

[00:06:11] Mel: So, Erica, I would absolutely

say that first experience of

feeling

Discomfort

in a situation

and being willing to change it has absolutely been the foundation of a lot of the steps I've taken. So, when I was at the Chancery Bar, I was pretty miserable. Just wasn't for me. As I say, my values didn't really allow me to change.

I'm just doing lots of work, you know, making people homeless, day in, day out, you know, for a year, I was the acceptable face of mortgage repossession and it was awful. But

of course, when you've trained

for as long as I had to get to the chance to go when there weren't many Asian people, and certainly not many Asian women, have a chance to value.

You feel that you're giving up a big prize,

that you're going to regret this step. And lots of people told me that I would regret that step. But the fact that

I had made a

change and pivoted before was

the thing

that I used as a springboard to enable me to pivot again when it wasn't right for me in chambers.

And I would say to anyone,

you

know, really trust your instinct. You know yourself. You know what's important to you. and if your work

doesn't align with your own personal values, you know what the problem is.

then

you absolutely have to make that change, and you know

what? I

don't know anyone

who

has made that change who has regretted it.

everybody I've spoken to.

And again, you can learn from other

people, you know, in terms of building self confidence, you can

learn from other

people's experience and see how that has shaped their future and take a bit of confidence from that

[: 00:07:44

mean, just out of interest, because I, I know very little about the Bar. Like, so what were you doing at the Bar when you were

making people

homeless? What

were you

doing at the chance?

[: 00:07:54

[00:07:54] Mel: Chancery Bar is a mix of, contentious work and non

contentious work.

So you're

sometimes in court, but not always in court, but at the

bottom end of the Bar, you're often

in court and

[: 00:08:03

[00:08:04] Mel: things like

landlord and tenant possession actions or mortgage possession actions,

[: 00:08:09

[00:08:09] Mel: because it was you know, really big brief to be, you know, be hired by one of the very big, building societies to do all of their mortgage possession

work, there's a lot of money in it.

And so my clerk was very much think about the fee. about, you know, the money that you're going to learn. And when I said to him, I'm afraid the money is not

enough, he said, well, I'll get you more money. And I'm like, no, the money is not enough

because it's not the

money is the thing that is going to spur me on.

And when I look back

at my sort of family history, you know, I talk about having these barristers who, my great grandfather, my grandfather in particular, they were people who trained over here, but were really, you know, giving back to the public. So they were part of the Indian independence movement.

They were friends with Nehru and Gandhi and Jinnah and others in that independence movement.

So I have in that hinterland,

I guess, a sense in which, you know, as individuals we're all

powerful. We can make really positive change in the

world. You've got a

choice to make

about how you're

going to spend your time.

And I found myself thinking, I did not

Spent all those years training it to

be a barrister,

all the money

that it costs,

all the effort

to go and just make endless people homeless. It just was not for me.

[: 00:09:27

did you, like, how

did you make the leap?

Was it straight to government legal from being at the Chancery Bar?

[: 00:09:37

term appointment for a

year at the charity commission.

So I've done a lot

of charity work as a barrister in chambers. So it was something that I knew. So again, talking about taking risks. Sometimes you can

take managed risk

by going into the office.

something, but it was an offshoot of what we've done before. And as I say, you know, literally from my first day, I felt like I had really come home. So I absolutely love my time at the charity commission, but it was only a year's

contract. so I had a decision to make whether to stay at the Charity Commission, or whether to move

to the wider

government legal profession.

And the thing for me is that I've

always been fascinated by politics. I come from a political family, so those barristers that I've talked about, were politicians and where my grandfather was intending to be one of the

[: 00:10:33

[00:10:34] Mel: government in the new India.

He

died literally weeks before, Indian independence. And so it was my grandmother who took on his mantle, became the MP. I and visit her in her

MP's quarters

in Delhi. She was a junior minister at one point as well.

So I'd always had in this land, I guess, law and politics and policy, but just really interesting and astounding.

As soon as

I had the opportunity to go and work for the government legal department where those three were absolutely, you know, intersecting, jumped at the

chance. And so I moved

to the department for education and had a brilliant time there as a junior lawyer.

[: 00:11:19

move around to lots of different

departments.

So is that the

same with you? Did you travel around many different

areas?

[: 00:11:29

And that is one of the great joys. Now we're large enough that if people want to specialize, we can absolutely accommodate that. But one

of the

best things I think about the government legal profession is that you

perfect your art

by seeing it in a range of different So I spent the majority of my career

below

the senior civil service in the cabinet office and number 10.

And then the majority of my career in the senior civil service is a deputy director. Back at the Department of Education,

but I also did a stint at transport, which was amazing, a really good counterpoint to the work that I've done the social policy work that I've done education.

And then as a director,

I spent the majority of my career.

at the Department for Health and Social Care, where I led

on the COVID

response, as you'll remember, Erika.

So I've moved around a lot of different departments, and I think what that really enables you to do, as I say,

is to develop your

understanding, particularly of public law, that's mostly what we do, but we do also have employment lawyers and commercial lawyers, but really understanding that in a variety of different sectors, so it sharpens your skill set, I'd say.

[: 00:12:41

do you think

it is, I mean, I've got my own view, but what do you

think it is

that makes

it so interesting being

a lawyer working

for the government?

[: 00:12:51

really novel,

You

know, there's nothing like it in the rest of the profession. So we're often having to think creatively from first principles, about things that have just not been done before. I mean, COVID is a really good example.

My goodness, we have never

locked down a country before.

We have

no experience of that at all.

e. How is that we had, in the: 1984

a pandemic or

other outbreak

of disease

And We really have

to test the boundaries.

[: 00:13:27

[00:13:27] Mel: And as soon as

we were making the law

in that space, we were challenged in the

courts. So as we were

making policy, as we were implementing that policy, we were being challenged. So

again, there's very few areas.

of any kind of legal practice where that would be happening to you.

So I would say that it's the

creativity.

of what we do, the fact that we're working from first principles, but also the scrutiny that we get from the courts, from the media, and from parliament that bring a really unique dimension to everything that we do in government law.

[: 00:14:02

yeah. And actually, I mean, it's probably worth saying because I mean, I certainly didn't know about government legal until I became involved with government legal.

And I used to think if people ever

said to me, would you ever go and work in government?

I

thought

I would be drafting legislation. I

thought that was the only thing

that could be going on. And I guess for anyone who doesn't know, there are 3, 000 or more lawyers that have now

been brought together in a single department, servicing

all of

the departments, and other arm's length bodies. So it's, it's an amazing organization to, to be part of. And as you say, the work is so interesting and all this challenge in the courts that people

probably don't think about. But also for me, I think the fact that you are

dealing with real life.

every day, it's a bit like for me, like a doctor who's, they're

dealing, if you

talk to a doctor, they're always

interesting because they're dealing with something that you can identify with. If you talk to me as a derivatives and structures finance

lawyer, you're not going to find anything very interesting in there to talk about. But I always remember

talking to someone quite junior.

I guess

at Defra

and they were the litter expert and they were so excited that they were the expert on litter and they were like, if it's over the size of a bin bag, that's fly

tipping, that's not me. But I can

tell you everything there is to know about

litter because it, it's

part of our, it's part of our daily life. So it, yeah, that's, I think

that's one of the reasons it's so fascinating. I mean, it'd be interesting.

I mean, what do you think about

dealing with politicians? I mean, it's

hard for the general public

to I guess sympathize with the pressure

that they're under.

it's very easy to criticize

them, but they are under

huge scrutiny and pressure

and, and they're often not very experienced in the area.

they're suddenly, you know, plopped into.

But yeah, how, how, what's

your approach to dealing with ministers and politicians?

[: 00:15:44

I have a huge amount of respect for politicians. I think it is such a tough job being a minister.

And I think understanding that

means that my approach to them is one of treating them as people, first of all, people doing a really difficult job. Second of all, and people

doing a job

where often, you know, you can't win because,

you know, you're making really, really hard decisions that an appreciable part of the population is just not going to agree with.

And when I think about our female politicians, in particular, the amount of challenge that they get, the threats that they live under, you couldn't but admire people for putting that public service

first. So I always think about

What I would feel like if I was having to make that decision, I would want the very best legal advice.

I would want precision. I would wanna understand exactly what risk I was taking on

and what would

happen if that risk was to eventuate. And I think that's the thing that we often miss as lawyers. You know, we

talk about risk pretty comfortably.

I.

[: 00:16:49

[00:16:52] Mel: ministers or other clients about what the impact of

that risk going the wrong way for you might be. And that is often the thing that helps ministers make the difficult decisions that they have to make.

But my

experience is that most of them.

firstly, I think they're incredibly bright. They are really bright, really committed people who've gone into the world they've gone into because they genuinely want to make a positive

difference.

So I absolutely

treat them with respect and I'm very pleased that they're doing their job rather than me

doing my

[: 00:17:26

[00:17:26] Erica: come back to that because I want to ask you about politics, given, given the family connection. I mean, I do think that point about risk is really interesting because I think, particularly early on in

your career, you're trying to

get the law right, to get, you know, whatever you, you know, transaction right, drafting right.

And, and, and if

you're talking, you're trying

to identify what the risks are, but sometimes there might be a big risk, but actually its impact could be very little. And, you know, as someone who's a transactional, we spent hours and hours on words in

contracts. And sometimes if you

really look at a contract, you're like, is

someone really going to sue on this?

Is

it really going to

be important?

And

sometimes the answer is yes,

but often it's not. And I presume you've

come across situations where it feels

high risk. But actually the

impact could be pretty low.

[: 00:18:13

sometimes when

even a small

risk is intolerable for whatever reason,

you know, particularly on the national security side, for example, you know, we might be much, much less likely to take this, we might do in a commercial setting.

[: 00:18:28

[00:18:29] Mel: you have to understand what the risk

appetite is of the minister

or other client that you're dealing with.

You absolutely have

to understand what the broader landscape is, you know, how likely it is that someone will challenge or not, and that obviously feeds into the consideration as well. I think

there's also a tendency when you're a

new

lawyer to sort of try and uncover every single risk.

that's something

that I think, you know, I'd caution against because, again, to be

credible with the

person that you're advising, you know,

the risk

has to be an appreciable risk, really, for them to take account of it, I'd

[: 00:19:06

[00:19:07] Erica: so what's your advice for dropping, like, so you, you've identified all these risks, they all feel quite important,

You can see

some are worse than others, like, it's quite hard, isn't it, when you're learning to go, I'm not even going to tell them about this

risk.

[: 00:19:21

so I think

what you can do is, is talk

about other

risks, which are less important that you've excluded because they don't, you don't think that they are going to be determinative of the issue. So you can, you know, put that

sort of, you can, you can, mention that there are other risks, but explain why you're not going to be focusing on them.

And often we are in that space. So, very often, particularly at my level, we're having to advise at real speed with very little knowledge. You might not really understand what the issues are, but still you've got to give advice that is actionable.

And

I

think

that's the thing to always remember.

[: 00:20:00

[00:20:02] Mel: What advice are you giving that enables somebody to take a decision and act upon that advice?

So if it's simply

theoretical. Or it's academic or it's

sitting on the fence, you know, that's impossibly hard for people.

so I

think, you know, if you can put yourself in the position of the decision maker, I think that often helps you

to craft

your advice in such a

way

[: 00:20:27

[00:20:27] Erica: Amazing. Thank you.

and I, I'm sure people

listening would love to

hear a bit about like what

the COVID experience was

like, I guess, from the beginning of realizing

this was something going into

lockdown. I mean, well, and I

guess you were

having to go in all the time during lockdown. So can you

just talk

us through what it was

like?

[: 00:20:46

[00:20:48] Mel: fact, we didn't go

in during lockdown. We were working from home, and thank heavens we

were

because we did not have enough hours of the day to also commute, as well as work.

[: 00:20:59

[00:20:59] Mel: it was

really evident from about, Late January, early February that this was something that was really going to impact us in a way

that we probably actually couldn't even foresee.

So we knew we were taking a step into the unknown

And we dusted off our powers.

We knew that we have these powers that we would need to rely on where there are pandemic.

We looked at work

that had been done previously, to

[: 00:21:28

[00:21:30] Mel: identify how those powers could be exercised in the past, but they have never been exercised.

So we were doing all the good

things that lawyers should do, which is anticipate what's coming down the line,

dust off work that had been done previously, start to think about how we might have to react.

And the very

first set of regs that we made,this is such the instruments, the very first that we made over a weekend early in February, and that was to deal with, the people who had come back from Wuhan and actually quarantine them to see whether or not they had, the infection.

that

was the first

time that we've done anything like locking down a group of people or quarantine.

and the advice

that we had to give to ministers, we have very little time to give it and very little time to make. the regulations, because we knew that. People were coming back and they would simply disperse into the community.

So

there was a bit of

fear. I think it's

fair to say there was a

bit of fear about how we were going to do this and do this well.

There was that sense

in which, you know, if we

were litigated

and found to have exceeded our powers, that would stop us dead in our tracks for anything that came down the line.

And

I remember when we made that

first set of regulations, In the early on the Monday morning, we'd made them literally over the weekend,

[: 00:22:53

[00:22:53] Mel: the minister

would

sign them first thing in the morning.

The commentators, the legal

commentators started off by saying that we had exceeded our powers.

And then within a couple of

hours.

They had all pretty much retreated from that. So, although

there was grumbling. We thought to

ourselves, okay, we've, we've, we've done this well. We're on the right side of the line and we weren't challenged on those regulations. They then became the foundation for everything that followed.

And it was

working night and day.

I mean, you know, sometimes we were working 18,

as a

day, sometimes more, as I say, we didn't have time to commute. And we used to say to one another, thank heavens, we are

able to

work from home, because literally we'd fall out of bed, do the job that needs to be done, fall into bed, and then start again the next day.

It was a 7 day a week job, so I had lawyers who worked around the clock, And we tried to

do all sorts of things like bring shift working, bring in relief teams so that people could have time off. we, You know,

really encourage

people to have as much downtime as they could. But we did know, and I felt very guilty, Erica, that I was putting pressure on the lawyers to deliver because there was no choice but to do that.

There was no cavalry coming to help us out. We

had to do it ourselves, we had to take as much recruitment

as we could. We had to bring in people,

borrow,

lawyers where we could. But fundamentally, it was going to be us.

Doing the heavy lifting on that task,

[: 00:24:28

[00:24:29] Mel: and it

was really hard. And when I would see people, you know, literally falling over sometimes, but it's certainly metaphorically falling over physically and emotionally

that sense of guilt was

really immense as a

[: 00:24:42

Yeah, I

mean, it was really interesting. I mean, it probably says something interesting about

government legal because I

was talking to people, you know, I had a sort of clinic where people could call

me up

and if they

were feeling stressed, like, just someone to offload on, a night, you

know, if

I had

any tips, I'd give it to

him. but often the people I was with were really worried about their boss, so they'd be really worried about you, and there's you worrying about them, but they'd also be worrying about you, but I, but I guess you're never

going to find a greater sort

of,

committed purpose to all draw together on. So there was a real sense of purpose, I guess, behind it, that you are literally doing whatever you could to save the country.

[: 00:25:19

one of the things that bound us together.

But to be honest with you, even that can

only take you so far

when you are working for six months, a year or two years at that pitch. So I only did the first

year of that.

and that probably was the hardest year, but some of my colleagues did it for two years.

And in fact, we've learned quite a lot of

lessons from that. So we now have

a rapid

response team that we can deploy to help support teams that are going through that sort of pressure

We did an awful lot

as an organization. So I was

The the champion for the parents network. It's a new network at that stage So I have four children and you know trying to

balance, you

know homeschooling

[: 00:25:59

[00:26:00] Mel: and all the rest alongside that work was really hard

but we got to know

one another better.

We got to know one another's pressure points and challenges

that bit

better. And I think it's an organization we've kept.

And I also think there is

something as a leader,

you know, It can be very

tempting when you are facing that, you know, huge challenge to lead from the front and be there. Hero

leader.

And actually, it was more important. I wish I kind of focused on this earlier. It was more important for me to show people that I was finding it hard

[: 00:26:36

[00:26:37] Mel: and that

I

was struggling as

much as they were

struggling. And that was part of what kept people going, in a sense, because they knew that you were finding it hard too, and they didn't feel quite so bad that they were fine.

[: 00:26:48

[00:26:48] Erica: No, that's interesting. When,

when did you come to that realization?

[: 00:26:52

was probably

the summer. So I would say the June or July. So we'd already

been going about five

or six months by that point. And we've had a really difficult time during May. You know, that was when we were having to make a lot of really difficult decisions about

[: 00:27:06

[00:27:08] Mel: So we'd work

like

crazy during that period. And, you

know, I felt it was my job to be really positive and optimistic and keep people going. And yes, there is that. Definitely a role for a leader in doing that, giving people the hope and understanding, celebrating the success and the understanding of what they've achieved.

But it was really apparent by June when I was kind of on my knees that I needed to show people that I was on my knees. And I had a

very wise

non executive director at the department. he said to me, take lead and be really ostentatious. About the fact that you are going on leave. And I felt, you know, that would

be a bit awful.

That'd

be like rubbing people's noses in it. But she was absolutely right.

Because if I wasn't showing

that I was thinking of myself and taking time out, they wouldn't do that.

And I also remember

Erica,

you came and spoke

to us in the summer we had an away

day

where made time to talk about and think about how we were feeling.

[: 00:28:11

[00:28:12] Mel: We don't often do that emotion and law piece, but I think it's really important that we do. And you came and did a

barnstorming,keynote

for us and really talked to people about the need to look after themselves. And that, all of that really helped.

[: 00:28:25

that, I mean, that clearly

was a pretty pivotal experience, I assume, in

your career.

Are there, are there other moments that, where you found things like very challenging or that

have

been really pivotal and you've learned

something from them?

[: 00:28:41

I have had so many things in my career that are a bit difficult. So one of the

really big

things that I

did in my career was a corporate role

of going over

to DFT as the second in command to bring them into GLD. So you mentioned earlier that we brought all the lawyers. together, so that we were one big department of lawyers rather than having lawyers, within departments serving that department.

Now

that was a really

huge cultural as well as a structural change for us. And I think

I learned there about, again, emotion. Emotion has a really important part to play in all of this and I think as

rational lawyers,

we think if we just explain the rationality and we show the facts and the figures and we evidence all the good stuff that that will be enough.

I have absolutely

learned that that's Never enough.

Really

understanding what makes people tick, what motivates people, what their fears are, what their hopes are,

what they might lose as well as what

they might gain, is just a really important

dimension

of leading people and particularly leading cultural change.

[: 00:29:51

[00:29:52] Erica: yeah, you're so right like we focus on the black letter of the law and not the

emotion and the story

behind it

So that is a great piece of advice. Yeah. Okay. And and cultural

change is

probably I mean any behavior for coaching

and coaching behavioral change is

the hardest thing and the cultural

change is incredibly hard.

It's incredibly hard to shift a culture. Yeah.

[: 00:30:14

[00:30:15] Erica: Good. And, and then can I ask you, like, in the future, would you ever

consider going into politics?

[: 00:30:21

politics. I absolutely love politics,

but I probably love politics as

an outsider

to politics

in some respects, or at least having a

connection to it, but not one that's right at the centre. I do have politics in my family. I absolutely

[: 00:30:41

[00:30:43] Mel: admire politicians. I would love to be a constituent, constituency MP.

I think there is something so fulfilling about representing people in that work. I absolutely see it.

But I think I'm probably not enough of a party animal in one sense. I don't

mean that in the celebratory sense. I mean that

in the towing the party line.

So I think ministers

often have a really, really difficult job sometimes of towing

the party

line they don't agree with.

And I think I'm an independent thinker. I think a lot of lawyers are, a lot of government lawyers are.

So I think probably our future in politics doesn't lie,for me, down the path, but I would always admire anybody who goes into it, because my goodness, it's not easy.

[: 00:31:28

You never know.

And can I ask you so I always end with like

three pieces

of advice to your younger self Like what what are your

three pieces of advice to your

younger self?

Do

you think?

[: 00:31:41

first bit of advice is trust your judgment. I think particularly when you're starting out,

Everyone

has a view.

Everyone will tell you what to

think, but you know yourself really well. You know what your values are. You know what your interests are. You know what you

get out of bed for.

And I think you should trust your judgment in that.

An ally to that is that if it's not working for you, change it. So I'm really pleased that, you know, I changed things when they weren't working for me. So have the confidence to change things.

And sometimes

that does mean taking risks. And it can be managed

risk, but it does

sometimes involve taking risks.

So trust your judgment, take a few

risks. And maybe the last thing I'd say is that, you know, Nothing is wasted, or maybe, if I were to

put it in a more positive way,

everything matters.

Because each one of

us comes with our collection

of experience. And that

is what most organizations need. They need us

to bring all of

ourselves into the organization.

So if you've

taken the meandering path that

I have taken, or if you come from a background that's a little less represented in the law, value that, because what you bring is valuable.

is what organizations want and nothing is wasted.

[: 00:33:04

thank you

so much for taking this time to talk to us. It's been amazing.

And for anyone listening, go and find out about Government Legal. It's an amazing organization. I wish I'd worked there properly, not just on the board. if I could dial back my career, I would absolutely apply. So go and have a look at it and think about it. And Mel, thank

you so much.

[: 00:33:25

[00:33:25] Mel N video1328769358: Lots of pleasure. Thanks, Erica