Ep#4 - Navigating Your Career with Headhunter Kate Huggins

[: 00:00:00

[00:00:09] Kate actually helped place me as European General Counsel at Barclays in my move away from private practice, and we've remained friends ever since then. What I really love about Kate and her approach is that she's thoughtful, she's honest, she's practical, and she really gets things done. She's got real integrity and you can trust her to guide you wisely, which isn't something that can be said with such ease about every headhunter in the city.

[: 00:00:37

[00:01:05] But first of all, Kate, it'd be great if you could give us a brief intro into you and your

[: 00:01:09

[00:01:24] I think in terms of introduction, first up, I'm a working mum whose parents moved in with her during COVID and never moved out. So, Alongside juggling family life, I lead the legal and corporate governance practice at Leith Waite, have been with the firm for seven years, globally leading the practice for the last 18 months, and earlier in my career worked at a boutique firm called Hedley May.

[: 00:01:51

[00:01:52] Erica: And actually, it might be interesting just to get your take quickly on what the market's looking like at the moment, both in private practice and, in the in house world.

[: 00:02:02

[00:02:12] That said, there is an economic uncertainty. There are less IPOs. Private equity is very down. So I think, you know, firms are definitely looking at cost. They're being more conservative in hiring, and in house functions are very much being looked to kind of restructure and bed down what they've got than necessarily go to market automatically for a lateral.

[: 00:02:33

[00:02:38] Erica: Okay. Well, that's good to hear and hopefully reassuring for our audience. so my first question is really, have you ever had coaching in your career?

[: 00:02:46

[00:02:57] I've had two formal coaching engagements. the first one I made the move across from Hedley May to Leathwaite, and was tasked with establishing the legal practice at a firm where most of the individuals thought that I joined to be their general counsel, as opposed to being a headhunter. And then the second when I transitioned to partner with the firm about four years later.

[: 00:03:18

[00:03:18] Erica: brilliant. And then, so tell me what was your experience of it? Did you find it helpful? What was good about it? If there was something good about it?

[: 00:03:27

[00:03:41] and And I think it also depends on how you mentally feel about, the goals that you're setting yourselves. I had my first coaching experience, I would say probably didn't achieve that much. my second, I would say has been absolutely invaluable, because I've had the ability to take a step back and really think about what I'm trying to get out of the relationship.

[: 00:04:03

[00:04:14] Kate: thing? And having a safe space with, with no judgment. So I think, I think very often, and this doesn't just apply to, to legal, Professional work has become all consuming.

[: 00:04:25

[00:04:45] Where it's all about you and it's an opportunity to take a step back away from the day job away from the demands of deadlines and think about kind of the practice and where you're going and what you're trying to achieve, but you're doing so with an individual who doesn't have an agenda. They are purely there to challenge you, but challenge you objectively.

[: 00:05:06

[00:05:15] Erica: Yeah. Brilliant. Or even a friend or a loved one there, you know, they all come at it with some sort of angle when they know you well.

[: 00:05:22

[00:05:24] I definitely wouldn't be seeking guidance from my husband in the same way that I can seek guidance from a coach.

[: 00:05:30

[00:05:45] but I said, you know, I'm not quite sure where I'm going with my career, what, what I want to achieve. What sort of advice would you give to someone like that?

[: 00:05:55

[00:06:22] so I think the first thing that you should do is take a step back and think about what's important to you and what is it about the day job that you enjoy. you know, there are a huge number of options for, for lawyers in a way that there weren't. In contrast to 10 years ago, where the career route was very linear, of whether you stayed in private practice and progressed up towards partnership, or whether you went in house. to an internal legal team, there are a lot more opportunities available to a five year qualified lawyer.

[: 00:06:52

[00:07:17] So take a step back and really challenge yourself around what is it that is important to you. And then from there, you can start to have a conversation either with a coach or with a recruiter or with your friends around if I really like doing X, and if what gets me out of bed in the morning is Y, what are the some of the jobs and some of the opportunities that could be available to me?

[: 00:07:42

[00:07:43] Erica: think that's the difficult thing that most people find is like, what are the options out there? Like, it's quite hard when you're working hard in a law firm every day to know anything other than law firm life. So is that, is that just really about making sure you go out to your network and talk to people or are there other ways to find out what different options are out there?

[: 00:08:04

[00:08:22] Go to networking events. meet your peer group, because you'll, you'll, you'll hear about other stories, you'll hear other people's journeys, and that, that will kind of create inspiration for where you might like to take your role. and don't be afraid of talking to your leadership team, to your manager.

[: 00:08:40

[00:09:00] Erica: Yeah, okay. So that's a really, I think, because sometimes I do talk to people who, who want to move, haven't found the right role yet.

[: 00:09:08

[00:09:25] Are there other skills that you can learn before you do leave? And indeed, you might decide not to leave if you start really, if you start really working out what else can the organization give you. I guess the same thing that you said earlier about, it's all about how much you put in will then dictate how much you get back.

[: 00:09:41

[00:09:59] Is there anything, would you send them anywhere online? Get them? Maybe they could ask Chat GPT. I don't know what that says nowadays about looking for a new role. but is there any where you'd send them?

[: 00:10:07

[00:10:27] Sign up to those, listen, look at the topics, look at what people are talking about, because that inevitably will shape the future roles of tomorrow. Mm hmm. Yeah.

[: 00:10:36

[00:10:57] So that's quite a new structure that I hadn't seen before. And then quite a lot of these, temporary agency roles, either, either working on specific assignments or working for a few months and then leaving. definitely more options than when I was thinking about what did I want to do other than stay, stay in a law firm.

[: 00:11:14

[00:11:33] Kate: Well, so the first thing I would say is you should build a relationship with a small number of recruiters, even if you're not looking.

[: 00:11:42

[00:12:01] They will be able to share with you. kind of market data in terms of whether you're paid appropriately, benefits, information, opportunities across different geographies. They can really help you with your career, even if you're happy in your role. When you've made a decision that you do want to make a move, you can then go back to those relationships and say, I would now like to think purposefully about, and I think purposefully is a really key word.

[: 00:12:28

[00:12:50] And then be open minded with any difficult market or down market. LinkedIn becomes critical both in terms of maintaining your own LinkedIn profile, but also looking for roles through LinkedIn as much as we would love LinkedIn not to be taking our recruitment jobs. If companies are being cost conscious, LinkedIn is a much cheaper way for them to go to market than to use a, use a search firm.

[: 00:13:16

[00:13:38] When a LinkedIn recruiter. does a sweep against a role brief. So while it's completely cringy and it looks a little bit like right move, it is important that you look at your profile with an objective eye and think, if a recruiter was reading my profile against the sort of job that I would like to get, would I, but would I be impressive?

[: 00:13:59

[00:14:01] Erica: Yeah. Yeah. That's really good advice. And, and, and sometimes people aren't aware that you can turn something on on LinkedIn that allows you to say that you're open to new roles and only recruiters can see it that, you know, so your boss isn't going to be able to see it or your, or your colleagues at work aren't going to be able to see it.

[: 00:14:18

[00:14:37] How would you go about it?

[: 00:14:40

[00:15:03] So you have Spencer Stewart, Kornferry, Hydrick & Struggles, Russell Reynolds and Egon Zender. And

[: 00:15:11

[00:15:16] Kate: Outside of that, you have three extremely good boutiques. You have Odgers, Hedley May and, and Leathwaite.

[: 00:15:23

[00:15:46] corporate insurance or class action. again, I think the challenge with the private practice market is there are a lot of Sharks out there that will punch your CV quite widely around the market, and you want to find somebody that you trust, and somebody that's going to represent you in the right way.

[: 00:16:05

[00:16:15] Erica: Yeah, so we'll put, we'll put a link to those in the show notes, which would be fantastic. and I guess a couple of pieces of advice that I often give people is number one, don't just make one call or one contact and then disappear because.

[: 00:16:29

[00:16:45] I presume you don't want to be irritated by people contacting you all the time, but again, you got advice about how often should they get in touch? What should they do?

[: 00:16:55

[00:17:03] if you're actively looking, it can be once a fortnight. it, I'm sorry, this is the joy of being, working at home. We have a cat. I think we should

[: 00:17:12

[00:17:13] Kate: that bit in. Sorry. so there's absolutely nothing wrong with, connecting. Very briefly, every couple of weeks, certainly every month, a quick email to say hi, a quick check in call.

[: 00:17:25

[00:17:46] Erica: Yeah. Okay. And I mean, another thing I sometimes say to people is partly based on my experience is don't worry. If they sound a bit negative sometimes, if you're making a move that isn't really easy. So if you're trying to move into something brand new, where you haven't got experience, if you're not the round peg for the round hole, I think sometimes if you're talking to a recruiter who hasn't got a live job that they want to put you in, they can sound a bit negative and off putting about your chances.

[: 00:18:15

[00:18:26] Kate: I would, I would echo that and say, don't be put off, but I would also ask the recruiter, the follow on question, which is who can help me or who would you recommend I speak to because none of us will have all of the jobs in the market.

[: 00:18:40

[00:19:00] If you speak to somebody, how can you use that conversation to go through it to somebody else that can prove helpful? Excellent.

[: 00:19:07

[00:19:27] They literally, I got rung up by a headhunter who asked me about a non exec role. One of my non exec roles, at the moment is from a cold call from a, from a headhunter. So, so I would really stress to people the power of LinkedIn and how often, even when you're using a recruiter now, firms will post the roles.

[: 00:19:44

[00:19:53] Kate: we work at, and I would say the Shrek firms will work on the in house side, are confidential. So no, we wouldn't necessarily post it on LinkedIn.

[: 00:20:05

[00:20:18] Erica: Yeah, okay. And then, and the other thing that I did, you know, and that I should do more often is spend a bit of time broadening.

[: 00:20:26

[00:20:42] It's just interesting, but I can look at my contacts and see who their contacts are. And sometimes that's just really useful in terms of jogging my memory about people I did know or whose names I've forgotten or other people I've forgotten to connect to. So I'd always recommend that for people, but have you got any tips about how to broaden your network?

[: 00:21:02

[00:21:19] Articles or, or forums that interest you. And you'll be amazed at how quickly people will A, accept those invites and accept those connections. But then we'll also post something and link you with somebody else that you can connect with at, at a basic level, people like to be connected. So if you just start getting involved, it will, it will grow naturally.

[: 00:21:43

[00:21:47] Kate: No. Okay. I, I, I think feeling the pressure to post actually can, can make main mean people sort of lean back. I think it's important to like a post. I think it's important to comment occasionally on individual's, good news, but don't feel the pressure that you have to come up with something inspirational and post yourself.

[: 00:22:09

[00:22:16] Kate: about cvs?

[: 00:22:17

[00:22:39] I think a lot of the time we see cvs where it's a list of responsibilities. It's a job description. Mm-Hmm. . Flip that on its head. You need to write a CV that focuses on what did you do in that role? What were the outputs? what did you achieve? Yeah.

[: 00:22:56

[00:23:02] and I had a, you know, I was thinking about, could I go into the public sector? Could I do something different? And she just said, this is the worst CV I've ever seen, unless I want to hire a derivatives and structures finance lawyer, in which case it's great. and she made me completely rewrite it. And I think it's what, as you say, and I, I try now to get people to do an introductory paragraph always about what's.

[: 00:23:23

[00:23:39] So, so say what your strengths are, then say what's the evidence for it? And really all the detail about the. Which roles you've held, you push right to the end, and certainly things like exams and where you went to school, put them in a smaller box as possible is, is part of my, my advice. But make it easy to read because I know often when I was interviewing candidates, if I'm really honest, I'd be reading the CV when I was going up in the lift on the way to the interview.

[: 00:24:04

[00:24:07] Kate: And don't be afraid to lose the commentary from your early roles. Mm hmm. I think all too often we feel this need to kind of display everything. When you reach a certain point in seniority, what you did when you were 21 or 22 or 23 actually doesn't matter.

[: 00:24:25

[00:24:32] Erica: telling people to put hobbies in? Because I always find that a bit cringey, unless someone's done something really interesting, but would you say put hobbies in? No, I

[: 00:24:40

[00:24:52] 4 children and is female. Actually, we, we would take the hobbies part out in any event because we wouldn't want it from a subconscious perspective to create any bias. Thank you.

[: 00:25:04

[00:25:22] But I find time and time again, that People don't invest time or don't set aside time to think about their career or invest in themselves, including doing research or reading articles that are going to help them further down the line. Is that your experience as well? Yes.

[: 00:25:40

[00:25:43] in my, in my more recent years where I've, I have managed to crack this, I think a little bit better, is A lot of people think that strategic thinking needs to be put onto the calendar, where you're sitting at your desk between nine and five. You can do some fantastic strategic thinking while going for a run at lunchtime or walking the dogs 7am in the morning.

[: 00:26:06

[00:26:28] And at times that could be, you know, go into the garden on a sunny day with a clean pad of paper and a pen and, and just sit in a different setting and write things, write things down. But you need to be away from your desk where it doesn't work. And I see this so often is people will block an hour in their diary on sort of a Friday morning from 10 to 11 sitting at their desk.

[: 00:26:51

[00:26:56] Erica: time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that you've got to, if you are, I mean, I, I would always advocate scheduling it if you can at various points, you know, even if it's four times a year, just take some time to think about your life.

[: 00:27:10

[00:27:30] and again, I think people. tie themselves up in knots, thinking about, oh, if I'm going to create a personal strategy, or how do I do a strategy? And really it's like a, a to do list, and then plus an analysis of where you are on that to do list. So there are things you can do like wheels of life, where you can look at, Where's your satisfaction with lots of different areas of your life?

[: 00:27:50

[00:28:06] Are you fulfilled? Could you do less of something and more of something else? Could you add something in or take something out? But I, but it's that it doesn't have to be fancy. And I do have a, a sample of a, of a personal strategy document, but it's really nothing more than thinking like, what would I like to do and what am I doing at the moment and what's the gap

[: 00:28:24

[00:28:25] And be honest with yourself. Some individuals have a plan. I have a very good friend who is a vet and he knows. That he is going to work in the same veterinary practice for the next 10 years, servicing the same farmers, looking after the same cows. Other people won't know where they want to be next year, let alone in 10 years.

[: 00:28:46

[00:29:02] Erica: absolutely. Look at the next step, not the mountain.

[: 00:29:05

[00:29:17] Kate: Three pieces of advice for my younger self. A very important woman once said to me that a lot of people assume that your career is a diagonal line that consistently goes up, and each year you need to be making another step forward, whether it's in pay or in role profile. The reality is that your career goes in a wave.

[: 00:29:37

[00:29:55] Is it a year where I want to stay stable? Or is it actually a year where I want to take a little bit of a step back and look after myself a bit more, take my foot off the gas? And that's okay. You don't have to progress your career in a consistently linear fashion. I think the other piece of advice is surround yourself with people you like.

[: 00:30:16

[00:30:42] And a personal interest perspective, the current economic climate, and ways of working means that work is all too easy to become completely all consuming. but schedule in that trip to do the school run or knocking off early on a Thursday to go and play basketball or go for a run. the, the corporate world won't fall over because you're taking a bit of me time to focus on your family and your friends.

[: 00:31:08

[00:31:21] Kate: I think everyone is different, and I'm always happy to have a chat, with somebody and point them in the right direction.

[: 00:31:26

[00:31:38] Erica: Amazing. Thank you so much. Thank you.